I was of course responding to Charlie, not Gar. I have no particular comment to make on Gar's post.
Carrol -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gar Lipow Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2015 12:00 AM To: Progressive Economics Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Quick summary of Greek crisis. Any thoughts? I was not fighting about Syriza, merely attempting to summarize what lead to the current situation in Greece very succinctly. I did ask for critiques so I can't complain that Charles gave one, but I admit I'm hoping for critques I find more useful. Like I say, what I'm writing at the moment is primarily aimed to be read by Syriza, because it has some suggestions they might find useful in the current crisis. I've spent a lot of time learning about certain issues, and some of that might be useful in Syriza's current situation. However I do want it to be accessible for people in the USA too -because some of the suggestions might have value here in terms of demands to raise. So if someone wants to read it who knows little about Greece I'm trying to provide a minimal succinct summary of the current crisis as it affects Greece. If you feel like reading the summary with that in mind, I'd welcome comments. If you want to tell me that making suggestions to Syriza, or summarizing recent history for those who aren't familiar with it are useless things to do, I'll listen politely. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Carrol Cox <[email protected]> wrote: Like most criticism of various movements and revolutions of the last 150 years this is profoundly unuseful. We can sometimes learn from what past movements did right; what they did wrong is _mere_ empirical fact. Santayana babbled nonsense in claiming that history helped in avoiding mistakes. The only 'lesson' history teaches is that history teaches no lessons. I object to criticisms of either Trotsky or Stalin, Lenin or Mao -- or even of Kruschev or Brzeziński or Lin Pao. All such criticism leads to is endless fragmentation and sectarianism. Fighting about Syriza is merely an attempt to avoid the fact that leftists in the U.S. have been unable to generate any left movement. What should be done HERE! NOW! Carrol -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charlie Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 10:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Quick summary of Greek crisis. Any thoughts? Gar, you will disagree with this tentative summary, but it might lead you to consider whether it is important to recount the history since 2008 even as concisely as you do. Other European countries will likely have similar problems, just as Ireland and Iceland preceded Greece, so emphasis on events that set Greece apart is more of a nuance, whatever the exculpatory value. - - - The bitter lesson of Greece is that social-democrats are incapable of confronting capital in hard times. Sure, they might get a few crumbs from capital in prosperous times. But since its election, Syriza has done almost nothing to mobilize and educate the Greek people for a successful course of action. Instead, Tsipras and Varoufakis dwell on how to be clever negotiators. So clever that they not only united the bourgoisies of Europe north and south against Greece, they drove Podemos in Spain to distance itself from Syriza. Chile's Allende was an honorable social democrat, and his failure was a tragedy. Syriza's Tsipras and Varoufakis are con men, and their failure is despicable. Of course, it is up to the people of Greece to decide what they must do. Around the world, let us learn from Greece the difference between social democracy and socialism. Charles Andrews My new book, The Hollow Colossus, is calmer than the above. Info at http://www.hollowcolossus.com _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l -- Facebook: Gar Lipow Twitter: GarLipow Solving the Climate Crisis web page: SolvingTheClimateCrisis.com Grist Blog: http://grist.org/author/gar-lipow/ Online technical reference: http://www.nohairshirts.com _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
