Sundials, for example. PETSc is still relatively low in the software stack. If everyone is making biannual releases for ECP, then we'd need a topological sort on dependencies and PETSc would need to release (or at least freeze) early, e.g., January or February, so other packages have time to update by their March deadlines.
I understand there may have been an assessment that PetscTryMethod sees vanishing use by dependencies. I think if we're doing that, it should probably be earlier in the release cycle with more effort to assess and notify such dependencies. Maybe we could keep a list of high profile packages, a script to grep them all, and a weekly(?) CI job that builds them. On Sun, Apr 3, 2022, at 10:45 AM, Barry Smith wrote: > > > > On Apr 3, 2022, at 12:24 PM, Satish Balay <ba...@mcs.anl.gov> wrote: > > > >> If we had this attitude with the external packages PETSc uses we would > >> have to stop using most of the packages/*.py. > > > > Sure one can take extreme view on both sides. [no change, vs won't hesitate > > to change] - having a manageable (minimal) change is harder to do. > > > > I would point out that most externalpackages don't change much and we > > benefit from it - hence we are able to support so may. Some packages had > > major changes - and we haven't upgraded to their new versions. > > What packages are these? We should have a tool that runs through all the > packages/xxx.py and determines the date of release of the version we are > using and if there are any newer versions available. We could run this tool > automatically a month before each PETSc release sending its output to > petsc-dev to see what we should be updating. > > Note also that some packages we don't update to, not because of API changes > but because the new releases are broken in some way, this is life in the HPC > world. > > > > > > > > [i.e with the current state one can use them only if they completely buy > > into petsc ecosystem i.e use old version - but not any larger one - as in > > use newer features from them] > > > > We did update to newer interfaces in some packages. > > > > But these problems remain - and have to be dealt with - and sometimes the > > complexity increases based on the dependency tree. > > > > [and also results in folk using and requiring help with older petsc > > versions] > > > > Satish > > > > > > On Sun, 3 Apr 2022, Barry Smith wrote: > > > >> > >> I would say it is not reasonable for the package developers in the xsdk > >> ecosystem to expect that they can just continue to use another HPC package > >> for multiple years without doing some minimal amount of work to keep up > >> with the other packages' new releases. If we had this attitude with the > >> external packages PETSc uses we would have to stop using most of the > >> packages/*.py. Yes, it is a constant race to keep up the versions in > >> packages/*.py and requires some effort but if you want to play in this > >> game that is a race you have to remain in. And it goes way beyond HPC, to > >> say you do software development but don't need to manage constant change > >> in everything is an oxymoron. There was never a golden age of computing > >> where things didn't change rapidly, pretending there was or can be is not > >> productive. Of course, we want to minimize public change, but having a > >> goal of no public change is not a realistic or even desirable goal. > >> > >>> Just noticed - CHKERRQ() got removed from fortran interface - breaking > >>> pflotran > >> > >> This was just a oversight, easily fixed. > >> > >>> On Apr 3, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Satish Balay <ba...@mcs.anl.gov> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> Note this is not just 'users should update their code' issue. > >>> - all packages (that use petsc) would need to do this update > >>> - and this update doesn't always happen - so pakages will stay at old > >>> release - some might not > >>> - so now we cant build PETSc with both these packages together. > >>> > >>> this type of change causes major issues in xsdk ecosystem (depends on how > >>> many direct/indirect dependencies are on the given package) > >>> > >>> Just noticed - CHKERRQ() got removed from fortran interface - breaking > >>> pflotran > >>> > >>> https://gitlab.com/xsdk-project/spack-xsdk/-/jobs/2285145624 > >>> > >>> [also CHKERRABORT]. Perhaps they can be added back in. > >>> > >>> $ git diff release-3.16..release include/petsc/finclude/petscsys.h > >>> diff --git a/include/petsc/finclude/petscsys.h > >>> b/include/petsc/finclude/petscsys.h > >>> <snip> > >>> #define SETERRABORT(c,ierr,s) call PetscError(c,ierr,0,s); call > >>> MPI_Abort(c,ierr) > >>> -#define CHKERRQ(ierr) if (ierr .ne. 0) then;call > >>> PetscErrorF(ierr);return;endif > >>> +#define PetscCall(ierr) if (ierr .ne. 0) then;call > >>> PetscErrorF(ierr);return;endif > >>> #define CHKERRA(ierr) if (ierr .ne. 0) then;call PetscErrorF(ierr);call > >>> MPIU_Abort(PETSC_COMM_SELF,ierr);endif > >>> -#define CHKERRABORT(c,ierr) if (ierr .ne. 0) then;call > >>> PetscErrorF(ierr);call MPI_Abort(c,ierr);endif > >>> +#define PetscCallAbort(c,ierr) if (ierr .ne. 0) then;call > >>> PetscErrorF(ierr);call MPI_Abort(c,ierr);endif > >>> #define CHKMEMQ call chkmemfortran(__LINE__,__FILE__,ierr) > >>> > >>> Satish > >>> > >>> On Sun, 3 Apr 2022, Barry Smith wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> To use the latest version of PETSc, each user needs to remove the error > >>>> checks on these calls. The resulting code will work with previous > >>>> versions of PETSc as well as the current version of PETSc. PETSc has > >>>> never promised complete backward compatibility in the sense of promising > >>>> that one can use new PETSc releases without any changes to their code; > >>>> the documentation has always stated new releases will contain changes in > >>>> the API. We began using depreciate a few years ago to limit the number > >>>> of changes that needed to be made immediately for each release but > >>>> depreciate is not suitable for all changes and so users do need to make > >>>> some changes for each new release. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Apr 3, 2022, at 7:23 AM, Lisandro Dalcin <dalc...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> The recent PetscUse/TryMethod changes are backward incompatible. > >>>>> Third-party codes cannot compile without modification. Our users > >>>>> deserve better. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Lisandro Dalcin > >>>>> ============ > >>>>> Senior Research Scientist > >>>>> Extreme Computing Research Center (ECRC) > >>>>> King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST) > >>>>> http://ecrc.kaust.edu.sa/ <http://ecrc.kaust.edu.sa/> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > >
