Re: Introduction

[Mark A. Taff]

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Replies 
interspersed
below.

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style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�

<font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma>-----Original
Message-----
From: Dave Page
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002
11:58 AM
To: 'Mark A. Taff';
pgadmin-hackers
Subject: RE: [pgadmin-hackers]
Introduction

<span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>�

<font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman">�<font
color=black>



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padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma>-----Original
Message-----
From: Mark A. Taff
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 14 February 2002 17:28
To: pgadmin-hackers
Subject: [pgadmin-hackers]
Introduction<span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
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class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Howdy!

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I am interested in helping
to develop pgAdmin.

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>By way of e-introduction,
my name is Mark Taff.� I am a web
and database developer living near Seattle, Washington, USA.

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class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�

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class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>�<font
color=black>



<font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Hi, I'm Dave!! :-) (guess you already know that
though...).<span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:39.75pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�There are a number of
features/improvements to pgAdmin I would like to see (and am willing to work
on!), but I don't want to waste my time, so I thought it best to run them by
you guys and get your feedback before I do anything.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes">� I don't want to be working at cross-purposes with the other
developers.� So, in no particular
order...

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class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�

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solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�





<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:75.75pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 
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tab-stops:list 1.0in;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=EmailStyle17><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>1.<font size=1
face="Times New Roman">���
<font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The treeview should automatically show newly created
objects if other objects of the same type are currently displayed.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes">� The user should never have to `refresh
below selection` unless they are in a multi-author environment, and even then
it may make sense to periodically (during low cpu use) check the server for
objects we aren't aware of.<span
style='color:black'>�<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>�

When an object is created or dropped�through IDE, the treeview *is*
updated, however, if�you execute SQL manually, or another developer
creates something it will not be. I'm not convinced that you will find a good
way to solve this problem. Of course, with software�like SQL Server, the
management console is much more tightly integrated with the server. pgAdmin
users are running ODBC connections, often over slow connections so this level
of integration is not possible.<font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>

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color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>�<font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>





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padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial>MT: OK.
If I find a good solution I&#8217;ll let you know.<font size=2
color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>
� <span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>





<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:75.75pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 
lfo1;
tab-stops:list 1.0in;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>2.<span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>��� <span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I would like to see the
treeview root item be `servers`, which would have sub nodes for different
servers.� I work in a multi-server
environment, and it would be nice to be able to work with objects on multiple
servers at the same time.� This
would open up the possibility of easily `copying` objects from one server to
another.�<font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>�

Agreed. This will require significant reworking of�the higher levels of
pgSchema. I did look at it a month or so back and left it when I realised how
much work was involved.<span
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size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�

<p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>MT: That occurred to me as well.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes">� That is one of the major reasons I
wanted to be sure about the future direction before I even considered trying to
write the code.

<p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�





<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:75.75pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 
lfo1;
tab-stops:list 1.0in;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>3.<span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>��� <span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The re-engineered SQL code
is nice, but it has limited usefulness.�
I do most of my work using the execute sql window because in good coding
tradition, I like to leave lots of comments about just what the heck is going
on.� This is most important for
functions (and function-like objects).�
I also like to save the SQL for each object as both an individual .sql
file and as part of a global class and object-type class files.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes">� This modular approach allows me to pick
and choose objects to quickly build a new database.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes">� To implement such a creature, I would suggest an SQL IDE so
to speak, much like the VBA editor used in Office applications.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes">� Part of this is also the desired
ability to right-click an object in the tree and to be able to edit _<span
style='font-style:italic'>my_ sql code (with comments) rather than
re-engineered SQL code.� I am
keenly interested in making this a reality.<font
color=black>�<font size=2
color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>�

The re-engineered SQL is essential to the Revision Control features. The
downside with the approach you suggest�is that it requires centralised
storage of all the SQL�- one of the things people often complained about
with pgAdmin I was the tables it created in each database. The other side of
this, is that�most people probably use pgAdmin so they don't have to worry
about authoring the SQL themselves, so such a feature would probably be of
limited interest.<span
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size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�

<p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>MT: It hadn&#8217;t even occurred to me store the SQL in
the database.� I was planning on
storing it in local .sql files.� I
consider it a benefit to have the data stored outside of the database.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes">� That way if the database dies a
horrible and sudden death, I still have my code. <span style="mso-spacerun:
yes">�I guess all I really need such a creature for is writing complex
stored procedures. �I was thinking
of adding this capability as opposed to replacing the re-engineered code with
this. �I&#8217;ll have to mull this over
a bit more.

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size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�





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color:blue'>
�� <span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:75.75pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 
lfo1;
tab-stops:list 1.0in;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>4.<font size=1
face="Times New Roman">���
<font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I would like to see a query designer with features
like the one in MS SQL Server 2000.�
This requires the graphical relationship plugin to be finished first, as
it would have to be an optional pane.�
The actual interface isn't really important.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes">� What I find important is having relationships, objects and
their properties, an sql pane, and a results pane all in one place.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes">� Probably the only way to make that
happen is with a full-size form in addition to the main form.<font
color=black>�<font size=2
color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>�

Sounds good.
� <span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:75.75pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 
lfo1;
tab-stops:list 1.0in;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>5.<span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>��� <span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Dependencies, dependencies,
dependencies!� On of my favorite
features of SQL Server is that it tells me when I am trying to delete an object
that other objects depend on.� I
realize that PostgreSQL doesn't track such dependencies, but that doesn't mean
we can't.� We could create a series
of PostgreSQL triggers/rules that would create/update a dependencies table on
object creation/deletion.� We would
then query this relation prior to dropping an object.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes">� This is probably the cleanest approach.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes">� This shouldn't be too hard to
implement, as PostgreSQL is kind enough to store object information in
selectable tables (hence triggerable, I think).<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes">� As this would be making some serious system changes to the
server, we should get user permission before creating these rules and triggers
on the server, IMO.<span
style='color:black'>�<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>�

The last code we worked on for pgAdmin I tracked dependencies. It was very
complex, and there were many issues we could not resolve satisfactorily. For
example, it's very difficult to figure out what objects a PL
function�written in language X is dependant on.

We are not currently re-implementing this code, for that reason, and because
there has been talk of PostgreSQL having a pg_dependencies table soon anyway.<font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>





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padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�

<p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>MT: OK.�
I&#8217;ll wait.

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size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�





<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:75.75pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 
lfo1;
tab-stops:list 1.0in;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>6.<span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>��� <span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The log window needs to
have a close button to allow it to be closed.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes">� If you are silly, as I am sometimes, you set the log window
to always on top positioned in the center of the screen space.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes">� The next time you open pgAdmin, you
can't do anything because the tips form is modal and hidden beneath the log 
window.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes">� I have to call myself silly, then use task
manager to forcibly kill pgAdmin, then edit the registry to change the log
window options.�<font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>�

The 'Show Log Window'�option on the 'View' menu is your friend!! Feel free
to add a close button, but please make sure it works with that menu option
appropriately.<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>





<p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�

<p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>MT: OK.� Will
do.

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padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�

<p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Mark Taff





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solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�



<font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�<font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Happy hacking!<span
class=EmailStyle16><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'>

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>�

<font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman">�<font
color=black>

<font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Regards, Dave.<font
color=black>