> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 3:42 AM > From: "Esteban Lorenzano" <[email protected]> > To: "Pharo Development List" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog? > > hi, > > > > On 24 Apr 2018, at 00:49, monty <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > +1. > > > > Replacing is sometimes necessary (Sven's stream work is an obvious > > example), but I don't see why Nautilus had to be junked rather than > > gradually evolved into Calypso. > > that’s clearly because you didn’t see nautilus at the inside.
Actually, I did see the inside, to improve its SUnit integration. > In fact, calypso started like that… we wanted to refactor nautilus into > something usable, but after losing two months of Denis work, we decided to go > other direction, since it was just impossible to do it properly without doing > it again. And the effort of doing it from scratch was less than “destroy the > house for the inside but let the façade” that would have been working with > Nautilus. Also, in the case of Nautilus (or any system browser), there is the > adding complexity of refactoring within itself. > Not everything can be refactored/patched up to the infinite. > > > And I don't see why the catalog can't be gradually evolved into something > > better. Killing it off would be discouraging to the users who went through > > the trouble of adding #catalogXXX methods to their configs and publishing > > them to the meta repos. Why would they bother adopting whatever replaces > > the catalog if they think it will just get killed off too? > > catalog was a “temporary piece” that stayed for years. > it was never intend to stay because it has some important limitations. > said that, it can evolve from the quasi-prototype it is now (I should know, > it was me who did it) to a real catalog. > > curiously, I’m thinking one part of making it better would be simplify it, > but that’s another story. > > I wonder why people is so concerned about the use of “killing catalog” > phrase. If you know the history of Pharo, we never “kill” anything we do not > have a replacement for it so it was never in the table a proposal of just > removing it. But to be good it needs: > > - some better way of collect baselines than force to build a configuration > - a better place to be > - some kind of validation rules > - etc, etc, etc. > > So well, in this case maybe refactor it is not an option, since many of the > assumptions it has are no longer valid. > > cheers, > Esteban > > > > > ___ > > montyos.wordpress.com > > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM > >> From: "Torsten Bergmann" <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Cc: "Pharo Development List" <[email protected]> > >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog? > >> > >> Hi Stef, > >> > >> do not worry - I'm fully relaxed. It is you - who suggested to kill the > >> catalog - without having > >> or proposing a suitable alternative yet. If you want to route the thread > >> to talking about "idiots" > >> and "assholes" you go offtopic and I guess I have nothing more to > >> contribute to the discussion. > >> > >> If it was not clear from my writing: I only expressed my wish that we > >> should better improve it > >> instead of killing it. That's all. > >> > >> Because anytime we have a better idea we get more disruptive in what we > >> provide ... and this > >> leads to the unfortunate situation: > >> > >> - that we replace our own stuff with newer ones again and again (which can > >> but must not be good > >> as things get more diverse and complicated over time) > >> - that users have to know how things historically have been progressed to > >> find its way > >> through Pharo (including the terms and tools we use) > >> > >> I would not see this as a rant - but rather a true effect we can spot on > >> many places in our > >> ecosystem already. > >> > >> Long story short: I would vote for the "fix" if the sole other option is > >> to "remove". > >> > >> Bye > >> T. > >> > >> > >>> Gesendet: Samstag, 21. April 2018 um 15:31 Uhr > >>> Von: "Stephane Ducasse" <[email protected]> > >>> An: "Pharo Development List" <[email protected]> > >>> Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog? > >>> > >>> Torsten > >>> > >>> Sometimes you should relax. Because if you remember I pushed the > >>> catalog (in fact I love it and we need a much more powerful one) > >>> and I even improved it. I made it better to automatically add MC > >>> repositories. > >>> Of course Thierry is exagerating. > >>> > >>> Now we should fix or remove it. Simple no? > >>> > >>> Now you can rant in your corner thinking that I'm asshole. > >>> This is ok for me. > >>> > >>> Stef > >>> > >>> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Torsten Bergmann <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>> Even there is no learning from the past - it's deja vu all over again... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Gesendet: Freitag, 20. April 2018 um 08:53 Uhr > >>>>> Von: "Stephane Ducasse" <[email protected]> > >>>>> An: "Pharo Development List" <[email protected]> > >>>>> Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog? > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi torsten > >>>>> > >>>>> the wise shows the moon, the idiot sees his finger. > >>>>> > >>>>> Stef > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Torsten Bergmann <[email protected]> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now > >>>>>> directly want to > >>>>>> kill catalog. Wow! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent > >>>>>> itself each day > >>>>>> doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, > >>>>>> improving and supporting > >>>>>> what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not > >>>>>> always. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thx > >>>>>> T. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr > >>>>>>> Von: "Stephane Ducasse" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> An: "Pharo Development List" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi guys > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> What do we do with it? > >>>>>>> What alternatives? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Stef > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > ___ montyos.wordpress.com
