I agree with you Dennis. TDD practices are far ahead in Ruby / Java / Python world.
BUT IMHO can be a real cool neaty great platform for TDD because we have: dynamic development. What I think we miss: - put a Mock framework in PharoCore - Mocks should be a standard tool even for low-level stuff - introduce pragmas to declare tests / setUp / tearDown methods so I can write AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>createAddressBook <setUpTest> bla bla AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>shouldHaveNumberOfContactsAnswersTwo <test> blabla AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>ifDennisRemovedNumberOfContactsShouldAnswersOne <test> bla bla - (harder) interface to / creation of an executable requirements / BDD framework like Cucumber http://cukes.info/ Laurent On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:31 AM, Dennis Schetinin <chae...@gmail.com> wrote: > As for me, I'm simply unable to establish smooth test-driven process > without Mocks. I think it does not depend on language at all. > > Without mocks I have to divide the task I have into smaller independent > parts. It's actually an up-front design. I can make a mistake (I usually > do); even worse it's often just impossible to accomplish because too many > subcomponents usually interact thoroughly and I simply don't know which one > to implement first :). So, without mocks I have to code bottom-up, from > details to general. This is unnatural and error-prone. > > With mocks I can start directly from the task I have. I get a use case and > write a test for the one. Creating the test I detect subcomponents needed, > understand how they should interact and document that in the same test. As > those subcomponents do not exist yet, I have to specify them and their > behavior right in the test (if I don't want to break the process I've just > started). That's why I really need mocks. Then I can take another use case > or implement one of the mocks I used as a real object and so on. Thus, mocks > allow me to go top-down and implement only the things I really need, not the > things I think I'll need. > > Are there other, maybe better, approaches? > > Concerning TDD popularity… I'm not sure TDD plays the role it should in > Smalltalk community. > > Messing with Smalltalk for about 7–8 years, I can't say I often see real > TDD code. About 50–70% (depending on Smalltalk dialect) of frameworks I use > have no tests at all. The rest often looks being tested a posteriori. > Perhaps, Pharo is the only exclusion… > > And if TDD is really popular and widely used, why do we have so much > regression bugs even in core subsystems even in commercial Smalltalks? > > Please, correct me if I'm wrong. > > 2010/11/23 laurent laffont <laurent.laff...@gmail.com> > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabre...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> Hi Dennis, >>> >>> Yes, TDD is highly popular and encouraged in the Smalltalk community. >>> And mocks are not necessary in most cases. >>> >> >> >> Hi Luc, >> >> why Mocks are less necessary in Smalltalk than in other >> (Ruby/Python/whatever...) languages ? Do you have some examples / link ? >> >> Sometimes I think a mocking library should be in PharoCore so I don't need >> to write my own mocks..... >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Laurent >> >> >> >> >>> >>> #Luc >>> >>> >>> 2010/11/23 Dennis Schetinin <chae...@gmail.com> >>> >>> How is it compared to Mocketry ( >>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/Mocketry.html)? SMock? >>>> >>>> BTW, isn't TDD without mocks a bit incomplete? And is TDD popular among >>>> smalltalkers actually? >>>> >>>> 2010/11/22 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianop...@gmail.com> >>>> >>>> This is cool Anindya. I don't need mocks right now, but I will keep it >>>>> in mind! >>>>> >>>>> I cc'ed Pharo-dev mailing list. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> >>>>> Mariano >>>>> >>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>> From: Anindya Haldar <anindya_hal...@yahoo.com> >>>>> Date: Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:11 AM >>>>> Subject: [Pharo-users] TestMock: a full featured mock testing framework >>>>> now available in SqueakSource >>>>> To: pharo-us...@lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Pharoers, >>>>> >>>>> TestMcok is a full featured mock based test framework that I am very >>>>> glad to contribute to the community. It is in squeaksource under the >>>>> project >>>>> name TestMock. Please feel free to try it, and feedback will be greatly >>>>> appreciated. The wiki section includes a brief how-to guide with code >>>>> examples. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Anindya Haldar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Pharo-users mailing list >>>>> pharo-us...@lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dennis Schetinin >>>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Dennis Schetinin >
