> On 19 Apr 2019, at 19:55, Esteban Lorenzano <esteba...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, > >> On 19 Apr 2019, at 19:17, TedVanGaalen <ted...@gmail.com >> <mailto:ted...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> "Because there is still an important place for desktop applications market >> and most medium-size >> to big business still require them." >> Really? Most things run on browsers these days. > > I say same: Really? > How many web applications do you use regularly? > Because I see my own desktop, I use a lot of applications and none of them is > a desktop application: None of the is a *web* application ;)
> - the apps I use to program: desktop. > - the apps I use to communicate: desktop (and yes, there is gmail but I use > mail, and there is discord web, but the desktop app is better… and all the > others I use). > - the apps I use to write: desktop. > - the apps to play: desktop. > - the apps I use to play: desktop. > If I check… the only web application I use is my home banking app. And that, > when I go through my laptop, because if I use my phone I have an app who is a > native app (so is assimilable to “desktop”). > > You may say “but you are you and that’s not the generality”. Well, maybe, > but: > > - I check my girlfriend’s computer (she is a sociology professor… nothing to > do with software): she uses Ulysses to write (a desktop app), pages and > office (desktop, forget about 365 or others). Here other tools: chat, > discord, mail. Always desktop. > - I talk with my brother in law (he works at facebook, but in the “control” > part): they use a desktop app. > - I go to a restaurant: they use a desktop app. > - I talk with a friend of mine who owns a real state business: desktop apps > to manage them. > > For area: > - programming tools: web IDEs are at least for now just a toy. > - productivity tools: all in desktop (web versions do not match them) > - graphical tools: desktop. > - games: desktop. > (And I can continue) > > Really, people: how many web applications have *for real* replaced the > desktop apps? > They have enlarge the possibilities: yes. > They are useful in certain scenarios: yes. > They are preferred for big business: (seems to) yes. > > But that is just a small part of that. > All the rest is desktop. > Do not fool yourself. > > 15 years ago people were already talking about the web-apps revolution. > And we are still talking about. > It may or may not happen, but we are still far from it. > >> >> Why would I need a GTK layer? >> (btw, GTK is yet another dependency on a 3rd party package) > > Breaking news: if you don’t want it, you don’t use it. > (But even then, you are already relying in 3rd party packages) > >> >> In my opinion >> the most versatile and advanced user application >> interface is: >> almost any internet browser! > > > Already answered. I find that sentence at least an exaggeration (and a > misread of reality). > >> >> Through all these many years, internet browsers have evolved into >> excellent GUIs with endless possibilities for style (css) >> formatting, fonts, colors, buttons etc. Extremely flexible. you can even >> include >> all sorts of plugins, Also you can use image morphs for graphs etc. >> What runs in a browser is computer independent, you'd cover many devices >> (phones, pads, pc, macs, tv, etc) in one go. >> In many cases, you don't even have to manage layout, browser does it for >> you. >> What more to wish for? >> >> I could ask then, why implement similar GUI stuff, writing tons of >> classes that interact with GTK, when internet browsers offer >> already a myriad of far more advanced features? >> Why re-invent the wheel? > > And I could ask you: Why nobody has done it as reliable as a desktop app? > But hey! Nothing forbids us to do a web based spec backend. Is just the > decision of someone to implement it. > >> >> >> The combination Pharo with Seaside (or equivalent) is very powerful. >> Sure, there might be some situations where using a browser as >> user interface is not desired or adequate, but currently I can't think of >> one. > > Matter of opinions. I can’t think on a situation when I would prefer a web > app over a desktop app. > >> >> So Imho best thing to do is: >> ***Always make any user app as a web app!*** >> Which of course you can run "stand alone" with Pharo/Seaside as server >> e.g. localhost:8080/yourApp > > The moment you say “always” you are already taking a fanatic decision that > reality can prove it wrong. > There is no silver bullet: > - I do not think everything has to be desktop > - Nor I think the solution for everything is web > > By implementing the Spec 2 backend what we are doing is putting Pharo in a > position of switching backends if we decide it. > By implementing the Gtk3 backend we are empowering the vast majority of Pharo > users by giving to them a way to do something they couldn’t before (and yes, > there is already people using it to develop their business). >> >> If one day a user would like to use their app via the internet, >> then no changes are needed because the app was already >> initially made for an internet browser as GUI, so it will run anywhere. > > Yeah, well. > Until you have a functionality implemented that is not supported in your > browser (and then you need to update/change browsers). > And then tell me: who is relying in a 3rd party software? > >> To make apps that way the Pharo IDE as it is now stand alone is a pleasure. >> I am currently restarting my app dev with Pharo/Seaside. >> The image is a start of the dental app I am making, far from complete, but >> I am sure you'll get the general idea. > > I get it. > I just think you are not taking into account the problem others may have but > your own needs here. > > - we want YOU to succeed on making a web application (and that means probably > seaside+pharo in someway) > - but we also want to give you the best tools to develop… in Pharo. And Pharo > is a desktop application and it will continue like that for many time. Then > we invest in Spec2: to make the best UI layer we can provide. As aligned with > state of the art desktop developments as we can. > > Esteban > >> Regards >> Ted >> <http://forum.world.st/file/t230630/Screen_Shot_2019-04-19_at_18.png >> <http://forum.world.st/file/t230630/Screen_Shot_2019-04-19_at_18.png>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html>
