Good Lord, a product's name is a conspiracy theory??? Gimme a break! It's obvious that the maker of that stuff jujst wanted to give it a name that was sort of attractive, and a tad different. Misspellings were used on products from time immemorial.
> [Original Message] > From: <john9...@pacbell.net> > To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l@oldcrank.org> > Date: 10/22/2009 9:30:58 PM > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Never thought it would happen to me > > True, and I have heard that Kotton Klenser is actually a type of hand cleaner. Who knows. Go to their website at www.kottonklenser,com and there are lotsa products and faqs for use. Interesting. > Is anyone else curious why 2 words normally spelt with a C are spelt with Ks (KK) and the company is in tennessee, and used to be called Rebel Products??? Just my conspiracy theory. > John > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich <rich-m...@octoxol.com> > Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:23:08 > To: Antique Phonograph List<phono-l@oldcrank.org> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Never thought it would happen to me > > The time to destruction is a factor of the type of finish and the type > of cleaner used. The "waterless" hand cleaners all contain water, check > the ingredients. The water is tied up in a couple of the other > ingredients but if you wait long enough you will have water on the > finish problems. > > john9...@pacbell.net wrote: > > I haven't found that to be the case with edison, victor or columbia machines, but I don't let it soak either. I apply, rub in well, then remove with a soft cloth. Follow up with a coat of a quality beeswax polish for a nice vintage shine. > > We all have our own methods of course! > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rich <rich-m...@octoxol.com> > > Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:41:14 > > To: Antique Phonograph List<phono-l@oldcrank.org> > > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Never thought it would happen to me > > > > The Kotton Kleanser will slowly attack and soften the old varnish > > formulas and will dissolve many decorative decals that were used in the > > first 20 years of the 20th century if left in contact for very long. It > > will strip the decals quite rapidly. > > > > Barry Kasindorf wrote: > >> Kotton Kleanser is good stuff, I have used it, but someone said it > >> leaves the finish soft. I think it works better than gojo. Gojo is very > >> good at getting hand/finger smudge off where knobs and lids get used. > >> -Barry > >> > >> > >> Douglas Houston wrote: > >>> Oh, indeed. Go-Jo and most other waterless hand cleaners are available > >>> with > >>> pumice, and when you buy the stuff, you must look to get the right stuff. > >>> There is one that does the same thing, and is probably the same > >>> formulation. It's called Kotten Kleaner, or something like that. Good > >>> stuff, I understand, for about 3 times the price. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> [Original Message] > >>>> From: Ron L'Herault <lhera...@bu.edu> > >>>> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l@oldcrank.org> > >>>> Date: 10/22/2009 11:59:06 AM > >>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Never thought it would happen to me > >>>> > >>>> It is the waterless hand cleaner WITHOUT pumice. I use a product by > >>>> > >>> L&D, I > >>> > >>>> think it is that is sold in the hardware or laundry sections of the > >>>> supermarket as both a hand cleaner and a material to remove oil/grease > >>>> stains (which it does well, by the way). The brand is not as > >>>> important as > >>>> not having pumice. It does not remove/affect the shellac but it does > >>>> cut > >>>> through old hand oils, grease, wax build up. > >>>> > >>>> Ron L > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] > >>>> > >>> On > >>> > >>>> Behalf Of Tom Jordan > >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:18 AM > >>>> To: 'Antique Phonograph List' > >>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Never thought it would happen to me > >>>> > >>>> I Googled Go-Jo and found a company that makes a lot of products > >>>> > >>> including a > >>> > >>>> hand sanitizer. Can anyone tell me which Go-Jo product you are > >>>> referring > >>>> > >>> to > >>> > >>>> and where it can be purchased? Does it removed the finish or just clean > >>>> > >>> it? > >>> > >>>> Thank you. > >>>> Tom > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] > >>>> > >>> On > >>> > >>>> Behalf Of Charlotte Mager > >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:27 AM > >>>> To: Antique Phonograph List > >>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Never thought it would happen to me > >>>> > >>>> There is a fellow keeping a data base of Victors. You can ad yours by > >>>> > >>> going > >>> > >>>> to http://www.victor-victrola.com > >>>> > >>>> Charlotte aka Waves > >>>> http://www.wavesllc.com > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:16 PM, Douglas Houston > >>>> <cdh...@earthlink.net>wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Of course, I'm not there to see it, but my first guess would be a > >>>>> > >>> buildup > >>> > >>>>> of grime from all those years. The dining room set here was bought > >>>>> by my > >>>>> mother in 1925. Our house in Detroit had been heated with coal, as were > >>>>> many others in those days. On the chairs, on the top crossbar, the top > >>>>> surface was black, and I assumed that it was the finish. For the first > >>>>> > >>>> time > >>>> > >>>>> ever, I went over the dining set with Go-Jo, and the black "finish" on > >>>>> > >>> the > >>> > >>>>> top bar got gooey, and wiping it away, a nice walnut finish was > >>>>> exposed. > >>>>> > >>>>> At the time I bought my VV-XVIII, it needed a good going over to remove > >>>>> grime, but wasn't as bad as some cabinets I've seen. I went further and > >>>>> flowed the original shellac finish with alcohol. Except for some areas, > >>>>> > >>>> the > >>>> > >>>>> finish is as new. > >>>>> > >>>>> I wonder if anyone is keeping a log of serial numbers on these > >>>>> > >>>> phonographs. > >>>> > >>>>> I have the impression that all of the jobs came down the line, and were > >>>>> consecutively numbered, with no special notation for such special > >>>>> treatments as electric motor, circassian walnut, or other woods. One > >>>>> interesting little detail: one of our phono collectors in this area has > >>>>> > >>> a > >>> > >>>>> XVIII Electric drive. The cabinet has a cute decoratice cover over the > >>>>> crank hole. Evidently, all cabinets were drilled for the crank. > >>>>> > >>>>> My XVIII has mahogany finish, and spring motor; a cheapie. The serial > >>>>> number is 1277. The name plate on the motor board is the copper one. A > >>>>> > >>> few > >>> > >>>>> years ago, one was on eBay, with a serial number around 1309, and it > >>>>> had > >>>>> > >>>> an > >>>> > >>>>> aluminum name plate. So, it appears that, somewhere between mine and > >>>>> the > >>>>> one for auction, Victor changed name plates. > >>>>> > >>>>> At present, I'm getting my Victor Electrola 12-25 put together, > >>>>> checking > >>>>> everything carefully before I put power to the amplifier. I did the > >>>>> > >>> Go-Jo > >>> > >>>>> treatment to the cabinet. The finish on it is a mirror. I've never seen > >>>>> > >>> a > >>> > >>>>> cabinet that old, in that perfect shape. I'm anxious to have it > >>>>> going. I > >>>>> also have a 12-15 Electrola, and it's dynamite. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> [Original Message] > >>>>>> From: Andrew Baron <a...@popyrus.com> > >>>>>> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l@oldcrank.org> > >>>>>> Date: 10/21/2009 10:04:42 AM > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Never thought it would happen to me > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks, Douglas. Needless to say, the novelty of seeing this visitor > >>>>>> in my music room hasn't begun to lose its luster, and the XVIII will > >>>>>> soon regain its. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I thought of Go-Jo as well, at least as a first step. The black > >>>>>> residue is dense here and there, but it must also be darkening the > >>>>>> finish even where it doesn't appear to be built up to opaqueness. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Andy > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Oct 20, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Douglas Houston wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I've had my VV-XVIII for about 25 years. It took a moment to > >>>>>>> realize just > >>>>>>> what I was looking at, but $120.00 was a reasonable price, > >>>>>>> regardless of > >>>>>>> condition. Everything was there, except the storage albums. One > >>>>>>> spring was > >>>>>>> broken at the outer end, and was quicly repaired. A going over with > >>>>>>> Go-Jo > >>>>>>> made it clean as new. I know just how you feel, Andy! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [Original Message] > >>>>>>>> From: Mobility Scooters <mobilityscoot...@xtra.co.nz> > >>>>>>>> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l@oldcrank.org> > >>>>>>>> Date: 10/21/2009 1:26:44 AM > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Never thought it would happen to me > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Andy > >>>>>>>> Great story! > >>>>>>>> Well done that is just fantastic and to think of how many people > >>>>>>>> must of > >>>>>>>> seen it before you did in the afternoon. > >>>>>>>> I would say it was waiting for you. > >>>>>>>> There will be no stopping you going shopping with your wife for the > >>>>>>>> rest > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> your life. ha ha > >>>>>>>> All the very best > >>>>>>>> Tony > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> ]On > >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Ken and Brenda Brekke > >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 2009 12:57 p.m. > >>>>>>>> To: 'Antique Phonograph List' > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Never thought it would happen to me > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Congrats!!!! Any chance of posting pictures??? > >>>>>>>> Ken B. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> ] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Andrew Baron > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 6:46 PM > >>>>>>>> To: Antique Phonograph List > >>>>>>>> Subject: [Phono-L] Never thought it would happen to me > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> From time to time, I've derived vicarious pleasure from reading of > >>>>>>>> some > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> the phono-L members' coincidental discovery and acquisition of a > >>>>>>>> particularly sought-after or scarce phonograph. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> In general, most of the membership are in areas that are either > >>>>>>>> > >>> more > >>> > >>>>>>>> populated, or nearer to denser metropolitan areas than here in > >>>>>>>> Santa Fe, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> NM. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Roll back the calendar a few decades, and my region is pretty > >>>>>>>> sparsely > >>>>>>>> populated, with more ranching than any kind of manufacturing or > >>>>>>>> other work > >>>>>>>> that would draw a larger population. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Fewer people = fewer manufactured goods, including phonographs. > >>>>>>>> Add to > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> the budget for a machine that most New Mexicans had (or prioritized > >>>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>> music) a century or so ago, and you have relatively few phonographs > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> begin > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> with, and most of those in the low-to-middle cost range. Edison > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Standards, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Victrola IV's, X's and XI's, and low- end Columbias are inevitably > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> models that turn up, and usually in none too good a condition if > >>>>>>>> not out > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a collection. Naturally some desirable machines were brought here > >>>>>>>> later > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> on, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> but by and large this hasn't amounted to anything significant, and > >>>>>>>> there > >>>>>>>> isn't much of a collecting community here. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So opportunities to build a collection are rather limited. That > >>>>>>>> > >>> being > >>> > >>>>>>> said, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I started collecting in 1974, when I was 12, and my Victor 8-30X, > >>>>>>>> Edison > >>>>>>>> maroon Gem, Edison early A-250 and a Zonophone Grand > >>>>>>>> Opera were all acquired here in Santa Fe, current population > >>>>>>>> > >>> 72,000. > >>> > >>>>>>>> Not exactly a small town, but outside of Albuquerque, we are > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> geographically > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> isolated from the big population centers. The Zonophone was > >>>>>>>> brought here > >>>>>>>> from New England in the '70s, when its past owner moved here. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To the subject at hand: > >>>>>>>> Two days ago, a big local consignment shop was having their annual > >>>>>>>> Fall > >>>>>>>> sale; everything 30% off. This event draws what seems like half of > >>>>>>>> Santa > >>>>>>>> Fe, and while my wife and I usually attend it, we generally wait > >>>>>>>> until > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> late > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> in the day to avoid the pressing crowds. Anyway, most of what the > >>>>>>>> shop > >>>>>>>> sells is vintage furniture, rugs, artwork, etc., some of it quite > >>>>>>>> nice, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> but > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> rarely anything of particular interest to a phonograph collector, > >>>>>>>> so no > >>>>>>>> penalty for arriving when convenient. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We had been browsing around for about a quarter of an hour when the > >>>>>>>> proprietor let me know that there were "a couple of Victrolas" in > >>>>>>>> the next > >>>>>>>> room. We continued looking around in the part of the store where > >>>>>>>> > >>> we > >>> > >>>>>>>> currently were, and after about ten minutes more, I finally said > >>>>>>>> that I'd > >>>>>>>> like to take a look and see what the phonographs were. We headed > >>>>>>>> casually > >>>>>>>> across the distance, through the crowds of people and things toward > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> next > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> room. No sooner had I uttered the words "These machines are going > >>>>>>>> to be > >>>>>>>> examples of the most common models, and probably overpriced", than > >>>>>>>> I could > >>>>>>>> see the unmistakable silhouette of Victor XVII or XVIII, just > >>>>>>>> sticking out > >>>>>>>> beyond the wall separating the rooms. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Quickening my pace (they were still 20 feet away), I prepared my > >>>>>>>> mind to > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> see > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a Victor XVII, the alternative possibility being somewhat beyond my > >>>>>>>> powers > >>>>>>>> of imagination. Still, a Victor XVII would be a great find > >>>>>>>> although I > >>>>>>>> already own one (courtesy of a very kind tip from a thoughtful > >>>>>>>> phono-L > >>>>>>>> member, $200, and a 125 mile round-trip to Albuquerque). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Coming up alongside the curvy machine, I noticed first that the top > >>>>>>>> curl > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> the rear corner post was mostly missing -- a clean break from > >>>>>>>> bashing the > >>>>>>>> machine into a wall or truck bed, no doubt. I also noticed the > >>>>>>>> > >>> fine, > >>> > >>>>>>>> expressive trim on the cabinet side and the chevron- shaped veneer > >>>>>>>> pattern > >>>>>>>> and practically leapt the last couple of feet so I could see the > >>>>>>>> front of > >>>>>>>> the machine, which left no doubt. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> There's something unbelievable about finding a top-end machine in > >>>>>>>> > >>> New > >>> > >>>>>>>> Mexico, and even though I have the XVII, and was already well aware > >>>>>>>> of the > >>>>>>>> differences, I had to see the VV-XVIII on the ID plate with my own > >>>>>>>> eyes. > >>>>>>>> The 3-digit serial number was also a strange thing to behold on a > >>>>>>>> > >>> New > >>> > >>>>>>> Mexico > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Victrola. This was a dirty, dusty machine, with some of its edges > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> trim > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> scraped up from careless handling, but at a glance, in generally > >>>>>>>> good and > >>>>>>>> very solid shape except for a few scrapes and that broken-off upper > >>>>>>>> rear > >>>>>>>> corner piece. Definitely not something out of someone's phonograph > >>>>>>>> collection, and just as you like to find them > >>>>>>>> -- clearly untouched for decades. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> A quick appraisal of what it had to offer revealed: > >>>>>>>> Original gold V key; > >>>>>>>> Gold needle cup, all original casters, all correct knobs, front and > >>>>>>>> back; > >>>>>>>> Large, gold crank escutcheon detached and screws missing, but still > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> sitting > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> on the crank about a half-inch out from the side of the cabinet; > >>>>>>>> > >>> Near > >>> > >>>>>>>> perfect felt on the platter; Almost certainly the original gold > >>>>>>>> Exhibition > >>>>>>>> soundbox, Ser. #87347B, never rebuilt; Very, very dirty under the > >>>>>>>> lid and > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> in > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> general (what is this greasy, black stuff?); Most of the record > >>>>>>>> storage > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> area > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> filled with (non-Victor) matched albums full of classical records, > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> otherwise stuffed to the gills with sheet music; Missing the lower > >>>>>>>> key > >>>>>>>> escutcheon and motor lift knob (and that maddeningly absent corner > >>>>>>>> curl). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Price, $650, minus 30%. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sold! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It's home now, and I'm having fun cleaning it up and getting more > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> intimately > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> familiar with its exquisite details, and learning why this model is > >>>>>>>> so > >>>>>>>> prized. It's going to be quite nice, ultimately, with a > >>>>>>>> > >>> respectable > >>> > >>>>>>>> original finish, after a many hours of carefully applied elbow > >>>>>>>> grease and > >>>>>>>> the appropriate preparations. The fancy work and doors on the back > >>>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>> their gold-plated hardware, concealing a nice compartment came as a > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> complete > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> surprise. You never see this view in the books. The motor is > >>>>>>>> relatively > >>>>>>>> clean (very little of the usual greasy build-up, just a yellowed > >>>>>>>> film of > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> old > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> hard residue). A couple drops of oil in all the pertinent places, > >>>>>>>> and a > >>>>>>>> light coat of fresh > >>>>>>>> grease on the governor worm, and it runs very quietly and evenly. > >>>>>>>> Even the speed indicator works. The main springs thud something > >>>>>>>> awful > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> when > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> winding down though, so I'll treat the motor to a proper tear- down > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> rebuild when I attend to those noisy springs. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Comparing the total production of the spring-motor XVIII to the > >>>>>>>> number of > >>>>>>>> Victrolas produced puts it at something like 0.0004 of the total > >>>>>>>> 1906 - 1929 production, and .0009 of the 1906-1920 production total > >>>>>>>> (Roman > >>>>>>>> numeral model-number era). This equates to less than one-tenth of > >>>>>>>> one > >>>>>>>> percent of the total production of the early Victrola era, and less > >>>>>>>> than > >>>>>>>> half of that when considering the total Victrola era, if I did my > >>>>>>>> math > >>>>>>>> right. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Finally (for those who've had the patience to read this far), the > >>>>>>>> gold- > >>>>>>>> plated motor lift knob was found in the needle cup, and the broken- > >>>>>>>> off > >>>>>>>> upper-rear corner was found otherwise undamaged, in a recess of the > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> cabinet. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It proved a seamless fit to the fracture surface. Anyone got a key > >>>>>>>> escutcheon? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I hope you've enjoyed this story, still fresh from the event and > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> accurately > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> conveyed, and I wish similarly exciting phonograph discoveries for > >>>>>>>> those > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> you who have not yet had the pleasure. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Kindest regards, > >>>>>>>> Andy Baron > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> Phono-L mailing list > >>>>>>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> Phono-L mailing list > >>>>>>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> Phono-L mailing list > >>>>>>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Phono-L mailing list > >>>>>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Phono-L mailing list > >>>>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >>>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Phono-L mailing list > >>>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> NEW ADDRESS > >>>> Showplace Antique Center > >>>> 40 W. 25 St. # 216 & 107 > >>>> NY NY 10010 > >>>> t. 212-273-9616 > >>>> NEW HOURS WED -SUN 11- 5 > >>>> MON & TUES BY APPOINTMENT > >>>> http://www.wavesllc.com > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Phono-L mailing list > >>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Phono-L mailing list > >>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Phono-L mailing list > >>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Phono-L mailing list > >>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Phono-L mailing list > >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Phono-L mailing list > > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Phono-L mailing list > > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
