The client cannot and does not send the session_id() used to hash
the password back to the server, it does not need to, the client
got it from the server.
It does send the session ID back though, because that's how the user
maintains their session across requests.
For simplicity, let the totally made up word "noncehash" represent
hash(hash(password)+nonce) -- that is, the hash of 'the nonce
appended to the hash of the password'.
Generally, if the client ONLY sends (a) a user name and (b) a
noncehash, then the server has no way to tell which nonce was
originally issued. Therefor, the client has to send (a) a user name,
(b) a noncehash, and (c) some key which can identify which nonce was
sent. This key might be the session ID, the nonce itself, or
something else[1].
If the key is the nonce itself and the only server-side validation is
that the response noncehash is correct for the supplied nonce,
attacker Bob can observe ANY valid nonce/noncehash combination Alice
submits and replay it to gain access[2].
If the key is the session ID, and the only server-side validation is
still that the response noncehash is correct for the given session
ID, attacker Bob can STILL observe ANY valid session ID / noncehash
combination Alice submits (she _is_ submitting the session ID -- the
nonce, here -- because every request always includes the session ID
when sessions are being used) and replay it immediately to gain
access. This is "session hijacking", and it works because PHP will
let Bob into Alice's session as long as he knows her session ID[3].
Instead, suppose the server-side validation is a little stronger: it
checks that the response noncehash is correct for the given session
ID, but ALSO checks to make sure that this session ID hasn't logged
in yet. Now Bob can't replay the response immediately. He can still
just hijack the logged-in session, though, and he might be able to
replay the attack after Alice's session has expired, because the flag
that says "this session has already logged in" will also have
expired. I'm not sure if PHP will create an expired session ID for
you; presumably it won't, but if you're writing your own session
handler or implementing nonced password transmission in some other
programming language, this might be a viable attack vector.
Evan
[1] It could even be the username, if the login process went like
this: client sends server username, server generates a nonce and
stores it in the user table, server sends generated nonce to client,
client sends hash(hash(password)+nonce) to server -- but then an
attacker can perform a DOS attack by repeatedly sending the server a
username so that it regenerates nonces more quickly than the real
user can log in. In any case, (a), (b) and (c) do not necessarily
need to be three separate pieces of information, since one piece of
information can serve multiple roles.
[2] Unless nonces are stored in a database and flagged as "used"
afterward. You can also, e.g., generate nonces in the form
"timestamp,hash(timestamp+secret)"; google for more on this.
[3] Unless you're e.g. restricting sessions by IP, but this is
potentially a whole different can of worms.
It is the server that challenges the client with a session_id() (or
any other random) sent clear and the client has to take the
challenge and combine it with the password (which is not
transmitted clear). Thus the client cannot tell the server, 'this
is user xxx, with password yyyy hashed under session_id zzzz'. It
is the server that challenges the client with the session_id. The
attacker might collect enough samples so if a challenge repeats, he
can have the answer ready, but that is unlikely with long enough
challenges (and session_ids are long).
As for sending the session_id() from the server to the client in
clear (not encrypted) it seems to me it doesn't make any sense to
alter it in any way since, after all, you are also sending the
algorithm in Javascript to the client, which is clear for anyone to
see, so there would be no point in trying to hide the session_id in
any way, and I don't think it would help the overall security.
My bank does use SSL, of course, and it still requires confirmation
to do critical processes so, that might be a partial solution to
spoofing.
Anyway, this is a poor man replacement for SSL, with limitations,
but it is good to know what are those limitations.
Thanks for your help
Satyam
----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Priestley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Satyam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <php-general@lists.php.net>
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP] protecting passwords when SSL is not available
This is called a "nonce"[1], and the method you've described will
give you marginally less awful security than submitting a
plaintext password or an unadulterated hash of the password, but,
obviously, is in no way a substitute for real SSL. For instance,
if this password puts the session in a "logged in" state, an
attacker with the capacity to sniff the password can also sniff
the "logged in" session ID after authentication. You can
potentially bind the login to IP, but will prevent users behind
rotating proxies from using your service and may not protect
users behind non-rotating proxies, and the source IP for a
request can be spoofed. Alternatively, you can require the
password for any action requiring authorization (and never put
the user in a "logged in" state), but this will impose
substantial constraints on your design. And, of course, an
attacker can still observe any other data you transmit.
If you implement nonced password transmission, absolutely ensure
that an attacker can not alter the provided nonce. For instance,
if Bob sees Alice log in under nonce "abc123" (her PHP session
ID), what happens if Bob later executes a replay attack by
mimicking her form submission (username: alice, password_hash:
def456, session_id: abc123)? If he can gain access via replay
attack at any time after Alice's first login ([a] while her
session is valid or [b] after it has expired presumably being the
critical periods), the system offers no security over non-nonced
password transmission.
Evan
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonce
On Mar 27, 2006, at 8:30 AM, Satyam wrote:
I know the answer to a secure site is SSL, but what if you are on
a shared host, SSL is unavailable and you still want some sort of
security?
This is what I came by and I would appreciate any advice as to
possible security holes in it. There is a big hole I know,
which is the screen to change the password, I find no way to
secure that one. But lets go to what I do have.
I found at http://pajhome.org.uk/crypt/md5/md5src.html a
Javascript version of the MD5 algorithm.
I checked it against the PHP md5() function:
<html><head><title>MD5 test</title>
<script language="JavaScript" src="includes/md5.js"></script>
<script>
function enOnLoad() {
document.getElementById('prueba').innerHTML = md5_vm_test(); //
test provided by the library
<?php
$valor = rand();
?>
document.getElementById('p2').innerHTML = hex_md5('<?=$valor?>');
}
</script>
</head><body onLoad="enOnLoad();">
<div id=prueba></div>
<div id=p2></div>
<div><?=md5($valor)?></div>
</body></html>
And the results of the Javascript and the PHP md5() functions
are the same (the JS source has a couple of parameters to play
with, but the defaults proved good enough)
So, my idea is that in the login script, PHP will send a random
number along with the login form. That random might actually be
the session_id() but if not, the random value sent has to be
stored in a session variable. (I really don't see any reason not
to use the session_id()).
On clicking on submit to send the login form, the password field
would be replaced by the result of
a) calculate the MD5() of the password, trimmed of whitespace.
This should be the same value stored in the user table of the
database.
b) concatenate this value with the random number (or session_id
()) provided by the server.
c) calculate the MD5() of this
d) replace it into the original password field and let the submit
proceed.
On the server side, when the login data is received:
a) retrieve the password field from the user table on the
database. This should actually be the MD5-encripted of the
actual password.
b) concatenate this value with the session_id() or whatever
random you generated before
c) calculate the MD5() of this
d) compare with received value. If they match, they come from
the same password.
Would it work?
Satyam
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