On Oct 4, 2011, at 5:19 AM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Mon, 2011-10-03 at 13:06 -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 3, 2011, at 3:54 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
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@pd-dev: in the course of making packages for debian, we discovered
another slight problem with the "-stdpath" and "-stdlib" flags for
declare (and probably this also expands to the "-nostdpath" startup
flag). following is an excerpt of the discussion in the debian
packaging
team:
On 2011-10-01 14:11, Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Fri, 2011-09-30 at 17:02 +0200, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
i'm not entirely sure though (given the nastiness of [declare])
if you think that it is a bug in "puredata-core", please file a
bugreport.
Yeah, that is indeed the case. Before filing a bug report, I'd like
to
clear up the meanings of the different paths.
/usr/lib/pd/extra
Am I right in assuming that this path is supposed to be searched by
all flavors of Pd (all packages that provide the virtual package
pd)?
This also the path where usually external libraries are installed
to
because from there they can be loaded from any flavor of pd?
/usr/lib/puredata/extra
is only searched by puredata / pd from the puredata package?
This is where libraries are installed that only are suitable for
the pd provided by the puredata package?
/usr/lib/pd-extended/extra
is only searched by pdextended / pd from the pd-extended package?
Libs that are only useful with pdextended go there?
If that is the case, then there is definitely a bug in the
puredata-
core
package as it is ignoring /usr/lib/pd/extra.
it might as well be a bug in puredata upstream (that's why i want to
discuss it; probably a more appropriate place for discussion is the
pd-dev mailinglist which i include in the recipients)
imho, the issue boils down to the question "what are
stdpaths?" (and i
assume that "stdlibs" are std because they live in "stdpaths").
for the sake of simplicity, i will only talk about the "linux"
version
of Pd (and with Pd i mean Pd-vanilla)
before Pd-0.43 (vanilla!), there was only a single "stdpath", which
was
the path were the Pd binaries lived in. this usually was
/usr/local/lib/pd/ or /usr/lib/pd/
since 0.43, a few more paths have been added, namely:
/usr/local/lib/pd-externals and ~/pd-externals
on Debian and derivatives, yet another path is added: since Pd is
installed into /usr/lib/puredata/ (in order to allow pd-extended
live
side by side with puredata), the path "/usr/lib/pd" is also added
as a
"common system-managed search path".
now all these paths are handled separately from the user defined
search-paths; e.g. they do not show up in the path dialog, and they
can
be disabled with the "-nostdpaths" flag.
otoh, [declare] has not adapted to these changes.
if you add "-stdpath extra/foo", it will only search in
/usr/local/lib/pd/extra/foo (given that pd is installed in
/usr/local/lib/pd), but it will not search in
/usr/local/lib/pd-externals/extra/foo nor in ~/pd-externals/extra/
foo.
(the same applies for the additional Debian-specific search path
/usr/lib/pd/extra/foo).
hence i do think that the problem is general problem with Pd-vanilla
(and not specific to Debian; it only shows here)
My guess is that [declare] should be adapted to consider as stdpath
the same stuff that -nostdpaths does.
I agree. I think that the various standard paths shouldn't be treated
differently. As a patch creator I don't care whether I installed the
foo
library in ~/pd-externals or /usr/local/lib/pd/extra, in either case I
want to load a library the same way.
I believe it makes sense to distinguish only two different scopes
here:
* system environment
_all_ standard paths belong to it and the '-stdpath' and '-stdlib'
flags of [declare] should expand all those paths, respectively try
to load libraries from those paths.
* patch / local environment
paths relative to the patch's location. The '-lib' and '-path'
flags of [declare] cover those.
I can't come up with another meaningful scope. But if there is any,
probably new flags for [declare] would be necessary.
This also means, that currently all Pd libraries in unstable that
install to /usr/lib/pd/extra (most of them do) are currently
broken, as
there is no proper way to actually load them in pd (you still can
specify the absolute path to the library, which renders your patch
unportable to other OS').
you could also simply start Pd with "-lib foo" and it will just
work.
so i wouldn't consider "all broken".
obviously, we lack the possibility to express a library dependency
within the patch, which is a shame (but which is also due to the
current
broken implementation of [declare] in general).
anyhow, what i'm mainly asking is, whether "std" prefixed declare
options and the "std" prefixed cmdline flags are supposed to work on
the
same "standard". if so, does this mean to be exclusive (e.g. only
have
the Pd install path) or inclusive (additionally have
/usr/local/lib/pd-externals/ and ~/pd-externals/ (and on debian the
additional /usr/lib/pd/extra/)
i generally tend towards an inclusive solution, though i'm not 100%
sure
whether this is the user expectancy with regards to ~/pd-externals/
[import foo] will load libraries from all paths, I think. Or at
least
it should. I never understood [declare]'s -stdpath and -stdlib, that
lead to me writing [import].
I'm all for [import] and I also think it is much nicer to use, but
unfortunately it is not (yet) part of vanilla. And yes, I think also
[declare] should work in an 'inclusive' manner.
apt-get install puredata-import :-D
.hc
And no, [declare]'s '-stdlib' and '-stdpath' flags are not that
complicated as you make the appear.
[declare -stdpath extra/foo -stdlib extra/foo]
The above [declare] covers all possible kinds of libraries:
* multi-class-one-file libraries (foo.pd_linux or foo/foo.pd_linux)
* foo/*.pd libraries
* foo/*.pd_linux libraries
* a mix of the two above
So I think that [import foo] is equivalent to the [declare] above.
I never understood why [declare]'s '-std*' flags work relative to
<pd-install> and not <pd-install>/extra. Having to specify 'extra/
foo'
each time instead of simply 'foo' doesn't make sense to me. And it's
making us trouble now since not all standard paths end with '/extra'.
Since <pd-install> is not even a standard path (only <pd-install>/
extra
is), I think we could leave it in [declare] for backwards
compatibility
reasons, but otherwise make it work on _all_ true standard paths. So
the
future usage would be:
[declare -stdpath foo -stdlib foo]
and it would load all library variants from any of the standard paths.
As for the concern with the inclusion of ~/pd-externals, I don't see
why
people wouldn't it consider it a standard path. But I think the
order in
which the various standard paths are checked is important. Isn't it
common practice that a local-first rule is used? Like
in: /usr/local/bin/pd is tried before /usr/bin/pd.
Applied to standard paths this would lead to the following search
order:
1) ~/pd-externals
2) /usr/local/lib/puredata/extra
3) /usr/local/lib/pd/extra
4) /usr/lib/puredata/extra
5) /usr/lib/pd/extra
(please add some more, if I forgot some)
I am not sure at this point whether 3) and 4) should be swapped. I put
5) last because it is the most 'general' where all the libraries are
installed that are not flavor specific. If someone has both installed
'pd-zexy' and (not yet existing) 'pdextended-zexy', I think it is sane
to assume that /usr/lib/pdextended/extra should be search first, so
that
the patch gets the same 'zexy' as it would get in some other Pd-
extended
installation on some other OS.
my 2¢
Roman
P.S.: Sorry, if this isn't pkg-multimedia related anymore. Should we
move that to pd-dev only?
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