I can always tell when discussions have gone off into the weeds when the topic switches to assigning blame for things whose outcomes are entirely predictable over time.
-David Schwartz > On Jun 7, 2023, at 6:42 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss > <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > > Who's to blame indeed... We are - our political class. > > > On 2023-06-07 18:25, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote: >>> QUESTION? >>> I understand TSMC produces the most chips in the world, and is >> located >>> in Taiwan . Where did they get that technology and who paid for >> that >> > technology? >> Being old enough to be there and experience the start of >> mass-production of copy/duplicate/counterfeit goods in the late 70's >> and 80's, I'd say it all started with "Made in Taiwan" goods. >> From my perspective from childhood on, it was in the form of knock-off >> toys, brand name fashions, CD's, tools, you name it, it was everywhere >> new and used, and it was all "Made in Taiwan". Not sure if it was them >> simply getting the impetus to clone our stuff, or someone >> surreptitiously asking them to do so to undercut established brands >> from here. Either way, it set off the flood into our domestic markets >> for crapgadgets. >> Taiwan goods were always just a bit crappier, sort of mislabled, would >> always break early if not out of box, would never fit quite right, but >> hey it was a fraction of the price! In my teens my focus was tools >> growing up to be a mechanic, and buying second-hand goods would always >> see a direct clone of a $100 "Snap-On" brand high-end wrench as a $5 >> "Stack-On" clone from Taiwan. Harbor Freight made a name and business >> selling knock-off American "Chicago Pneumatic" tools as "Central >> Pneumatic" (many others too), all Made in Taiwan (now China), and >> still does. >> In the 80's, US orgs began asking Taiwan to actually make these things >> for us including eventually semiconductors for us, even giving them >> the plans, when they already had the clone game down pimp tight. >> That's about the time China took over and now frowns upon mentioning >> Taiwan as anything other than China, thus generically everything is >> "Made in China" since then. >> As we sent our engineering designs there to get bargains in >> production, and taught them how to make our things including the >> machinery. Eventually those copies as part of reverse engineering >> became prototypes, continued to be made and improved on, if not in >> quality, in profit margins to make them cheaper, even eventually >> adapting into new products. As it was always explained to me, it >> starts with them making "one for me, then one for themselves", and >> later "one for me, two for themselves", ad nauseam. >> Next thing you know you have Coach purses rolling out of the same >> factory as the Couch purses that look the same sold in swap meets and >> alleyways around the world, barely indistinguishable except the >> receipt. Even worse now, you get things like selling counterfeit >> Cisco switches to everything from government to education [1] using >> modchips to bypass security on the clone [2], or buying pretty much >> anything of Amazon is likely a counterfeit clone of a clone of a >> clone. >> Who's to blame indeed... >> -mb >> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 3:29 PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss >> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>> On 2023-06-07 13:59, James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss wrote: >>>> Generally, if I hear it from cable news, there's a good chance >>> it's >>>> just someone drumming up support for something. In this case, >>> we'll >>>> probably hear about some kind of H1B system to make sure the new >>> fabs >>>> get all the people they need, etc. Same deal as when I was >>> working at >>>> a company that got bought by Dell, and they failed to retain most >>> of >>>> the new employees because they didn't have a structure that worked >>>> with professionals. Suddenly you saw Michael Dell doing an >>> interview >>>> on CNBC about the need to extend H1B 'cause they aren't getting >>> enough >>>> workers. At the very least, there's plenty of incentive to drive >>> down >>>> labor costs. And with the halts for new housing going out, there >>> is a >>>> LOT of incentive to manipulate the market. >>>> Am I being paranoid? I probably need to touch more grass. >>> Are you getting too paranoid? Maybe not. I quit following the news >>> because I think most are fearmongering and not talking and working >>> on >>> the real problems. >>> I personally do not like the H1B visas because I do not think they >>> are >>> necessary. If there is really a shortage of tech workers then why is >>> there not a few major tech universities? Why does Gates exploit the >>> H1B >>> and not create a really great tech university? And why do the >>> politicians allow all of this? >>> We have all we need right here in our 50 states, so why do we not do >>> things that benefit ourselves and possibly others? >>> These people like Michael Dell, Bill Gates, etc have forgotten where >>> they came from. >>> QUESTION? >>> I understand TSMC produces the most chips in the world, and is >>> located >>> in Taiwan . Where did they get that technology and who paid for >>> that >>> technology? >>>> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 1:15 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss >>>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>> Don't believe everything you read on the internet. I've read >>> that >>>>> Abraham Lincoln blames Donald Trump for giving the gun to John >>>>> Wilkes Booth. >>>>> On 6/6/23 17:45, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote: >>>>>> Chip maker TSMC is moving to chandler and I have read they are a >>>>>> sweatshop.... >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>> -- >>>> James McPhee >>>> jmc...@gmail.com >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] >> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ceo-guilty-of-selling-counterfeit-cisco-devices-to-military-govt-orgs/ >> >> <https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ceo-guilty-of-selling-counterfeit-cisco-devices-to-military-govt-orgs/> >> [2] >> https://hackaday.com/2023/02/01/counterfeit-cisco-hardware-bypasses-security-checks-with-modchips/ >> >> <https://hackaday.com/2023/02/01/counterfeit-cisco-hardware-bypasses-security-checks-with-modchips/> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss> > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss>
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