Orlando Andico <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Just because you don't know how to do a certain "thing" in The Other > OS, doesn't mean The Other OS is incapable.
Okay, let's assume I don't know a thing or two about The Other OS:
(1) Thus, when I encounter the latest, greatest release of Longhorn I go
like, wow, IT'S SOO FSKCING DAMN COOL!!! IT CAN DO X BETTER THAN
*IX!!! IT EVEN SUPPORTS y TOO!!! I WANT ONE!!! And so I grab a copy
in exchange for my freedoms, not realizing that I lost them.
(2) Goes like this: I work on that new system, I now do my stuff with
it, play games with it, write docs and this silly email with
it. Then I realize that, I can't do X in this when I can just (exec
X) in my former system. I therefore realize I lost quite a bit of
control in that....
(3) But fun stuff is this: Since I can't do X in the new system, I might
as well figure out a way to do X in it. However, it turns out that I
*really* can't do X 'coz I need the sources, which is not
included. As a motherfsck^Wmatter of fact, in order to make X work:
(4) I am required to enter into an NDA with M$ (or some other Suit that
I need to modify their sources for) in exchange to get the sources,
so I can legally modify them. I get the sources, plus some more
restrictions that simply would have made Shakespeare bleed if this
were about plays and poems. I therefore lose some freedoms granted
by the government; I am at the mercy of them Motherfsckers^WSuits.
I might miss something in there, but you, as a very intelligent being
capable of bending the truth, must also realize that your statement
misses something as well: that I *can*, in fact, look for a way to do X,
with or without any fscking restriction placed by any artificial
mechanism for control.
And in fact, I don't have to.
> Different OS'es for different needs. No matter how "manipulexable" *ix
> is, let us for example try to "manipulex" it to interface with a
> biometric scanner. The farthest I could get with that is download some
> open-source fingerprint matching software from Sourceforge which takes
> 10 minutes to match a single fingerprint.
Which is quite true. I suppose you are lazy enough just to grab stuff
From SF, just like I do. Only that I am *insane* enough to grab it from
Debian unstable, or even *madder* from CVS/SVN/TLA/YVCSH.
I have no immediate use for a biometric scanner now, but even if I did,
I would have at least:
- look at the descriptive and technical literature surrounding
biometrics;
- analyze at different levels of abstraction what such technology can
bring me, and at what cost;
- Obtain the supporting software and take a look at it; and
- See if it fits my needs AND if it is extensible, so
- I can later hack on the mechanism, so, for example, I can halve the
time needed for the scan.
So you see, while your argument may seem correct, it really boils down
to what *state of mind* you have wrt your needs or wants. I do not
dispute that there ought to be one universal OS (contrary to the fact
that Debian, as a particular example, advertises itself as such), just
that an OS that can deliver the goods is more desirable than an OS that
can't.
Now, if you can fulfill that `manipulexity' in That Other OS, then
that's very good! And I *do* hope you share your discovery with us!
It does leave a bad taste in my mouth, however, that you leave out
`whipuptitude'. Why, is that hard to implement, or simply because you
are too lazy to `whip-up' something at the prospect of making someone
else bleed?
> So obviously your argument that *ix is "stronger" due to superior
> "manipulexity" is specious. There are certain needs that it simply
> can't fill.
Did I categorically state that Linux and the FOSS are stronger? I reckon
that the The Other OS did, in their numerous `independent studies'...
What I *did* state was that, despite the fact that there are these
`studies' like this in the open, life goes on for the FOSS community. I
did not categorically compare Linux to Windows; in fact, I did state
that Linux has been compared to the BSDs, and the output caused by those
comparisons has helped both parties. And indirectly, that has helped
Windows as well; consider the networking stack in BSD reimplemented in
Windows.
I do not dispute that FOSS certainly can do everything. Like any human
enterprise, it cannot become God, it can only play like one. And even
then, I do not think that `to do everything and be everything' should be
the ideal; that in fact, it the presumption of the Other OS, remember?
(Don't you reckon the claim made some years ago by Mr. Gates about `a PC
in every home, in every office' something in the near future? I can only
speculate whether he was envisioning the dominance of Windows, or some
other MS-crafted OS, but certainly I cannot imagine him doing that for
the benefit of some other *free* non-MS (D)OS...)
Now, since you brought the word `argument' into this discussion, it
seems that you're back in business again. Welcome back! :-)
> The Other OS has a tradition of its own. Which you might think is
> laughable, since Their community has an obsession with bug workarounds
> and quick fixes. But it's getting there.
I cannot dispute that all of us left and right have their own
traditions. It is what makes a difference.
Is it laughable? I think not, considering that the FOSS community also
chases upgrades every once in a while, more so when unknown people who
you don't even realize exist find holes in the software. Hell, they even
do it for non-free software!
So, you get the best of both worlds, working together for something that
could have been fixed easily enough *decades* ago, notwithstanding the
openness (or closedness, depending on your process of vision) of the
Source.
> Having little exposure to that Other Community makes you unqualified
> to render blanket judgments on their "folly."
And how about you? Are *you* qualified? How are you qualified? Did you
take an exam, oral, written and anal? And how certain are you that I am
unqualified, when I began using shackled software since I was 126144000
seconds old (approx) when I didn't even realize it?
Of course we can start a pissing contest for the summer all over again,
and quite possibly, we can drown in our own piss.
You must realize, however, that my statement isn't just an opinion, or
another shot of piss in the dark; it is a fact. And it is very real. You
state so yourself, when you wrote that `The Other Community... is
getting there'. You also seem to forget that there is a large
accumulation of FOSS that runs on The Other OS, based largely on the
fact that many people have an itch. Consequently, they scratched it, and
the rest is history.
> I always thought the strongest "appeal" of *ix to the Geekazoids was
> the merry back-slapping (sharing) community, of which this mailing
> list is a fine example. Due to the machinations of The Borg, The Other
> Community is less willing to share, which is their loss. But it's
> getting there.
I alway thought that you were a Suit, psychologically programmed for the
purpose of Devil's Advocate. Don't mistake this; it's a complement! :-)
And yes, come to think of it, it *IS* merry back-slapping. And
crap-and-cram-sharing. And open-source-helping. And
read-eval-print-loops. And continuing the transformation of knowledge
and skill for the benefit of humanity. And yes, you can make a profit
From it, and that's the big surprise of it!
How can something that logically shouldn't be even be productive (taken
From the very same studies on the feasability of software engineering
made by the mavericks decades ago) be able to provide the infrastructure
for today's common networks? How can something not controlled by Suits
be able to make such an impact on modern civilization?
How? Because we are not dumb fscks.
> The OS, is technically not inferior, or even less "manipulexable" --
> you just think so because you don't know The Other OS enough. And
> that's something that the merry back-slapping "We is always superior"
> Linux community should do well to remember.
Not inferior, YES, because it is different. It has a purpose radically
polar to FOSS: *It should make money*, at all means possible.
Less `manipulexable', YES, because it does not provide enough leeway to
empower its users to be able to extend and remake the system according
to their caprices and obligations with the assistance of the system
toolset, if it exists: *It should make money*, at all means possible,
even at the sacrifice of losing such `manipulexity'.
That I don't know the other OS enough to make a claim, NO. You too, fail
on the same mistake, that a user shouldn't know even enough of an OS to
make judgments (that, in fact, is the basis of procedural and data
abstraction): *You want another petty argument.* Let me see if I can
give you one.
The `We are ALWAYS Superior' notion the Linux community seems to be
associated with came to being precisely because people began to feel a
sense of empowerment, something that simply did not made itself manifest
(or had some hell of a time trying to) in the other OS. And for the most
part, it is correct, like Fermat's Little Theorem on finding prime
numbers.
But then again, that Little Theorem can be fooled by Carmichael numbers,
so we use a better theorem for doing that, by Miller-Rabin's
Theorem. Along the same grain, the `we are alway superior' notion can be
fooled by the advancements of the field, the back-stabbing of corporate
interests, and conventional politics, so therefore we take a better
notion:
`We can always attempt do better. If that fails, we keep trying, until
we are better.'
[...]
So much for a simple post sympathizing to Alexis de Tocqueville's
legacy! :-)
And how can you be ! such a whoop-ass ! to figure that out!
--
ZAK B. ELEP <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- <http://zakame.spunge.org>
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