Too late for that either way, right? On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think the "problem" would fix itself if the damn gov't would stay out of > it. > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Societal Retard <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > wrote: > >> I dunno. I'm hearing you, and I'm admittedly a big Krugman fan- the >> simple fact is that the guy has usually been right- but this economic >> catastrophe is to serious to not take all ideas into account. What >> frustrates me is that half of the original bailout money is *already >> gone, *most of it apparently going to AIG, but no one actually knows >> where it went for sure- Henry Paulson won't divulge any "details!" >> Amazing. >> >> If we don't just fix the problem, and keep throwing hundreds of billions >> more out in band aid bailouts (Freddie and Frannie are going to need 500 >> Billion to solve their sub prime problems, it's now being reported ) we'll >> wind up with no money and will have failed to stop the crisis. >> >> On the other hand, if Krugman's wrong and we spend to much to fix it, >> we'll open up a whole new set of problems because we'll be broke and won't >> be able to even pay for basic infrastructure repairs, much less pay SSI and >> Medicare costs. >> >> We're tottering perilously close to a bad place; If our currency loses to >> much more of it's value, then foreign nations may choose to invest the >> profits they make from exports (Hello China) in their own national banks >> instead of investing in US treasury bonds, while also deciding to sell all >> the treasury bonds they hold in the Federal Reserve now overnight because >> the money will be, for the first time, worth more in their national banks >> (or in another nation's bank) and earn more in interest elsewhere than it >> would if invested in US Treasury bonds. >> >> A HUGE part of our economy relies on the money the US earns by being, >> basically, the world's banker. If that arrangement changes because the >> dollar becomes worth less and less, it would spark an economic meltdown that >> might make the depression look like a beach party... >> >> We have to ditch our left vs right blinders in this time, and try to find >> to best solution. >> >> Scary stuff. >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Travis >>> Subject: Krugman's Prescription for Disaster >>> Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, >>> >>> >>> *Krugman's Prescription for Disaster >>> *by David T. Beito >>> >>> Paul Krugman calls for Obama and his advisors to push an expanded version >>> of the New Deal (see the link below by Mark R. >>> Hatlie<http://www.historiansagainstwar.org/blog/2008/11/new-new-deal-krugman-in-nyt-about.html>). >>> According to Krugman, they should boldly throw caution to the >>> winds<http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/opinion/10krugman.html?th&emc=th>and >>> *"figure out how much help they think the economy needs, than add 50 >>> percent. It's much better in a depressed economy, to err on the side of too >>> much stimulus." >>> >>> *Obama should reject this advice. If he listens to Krugman, the likely >>> result will be a wave of stagflation that makes the experience of the 1970s >>> look mild by comparison. Such a prescription would both continue and >>> accelerate Bush's fiscally reckless policy of propping up malinvestments >>> through massive increases in spending, deficits, and easy credit by the >>> Federal Reserve. As the continuing fall of the stock market and the rise of >>> unemployment indicate, more bailouts and more "shock socialism" do not work. >>> Obama made a fatal mistake in failing to oppose the aptly described >>> billionaire bailout. >>> >>> This call for a hyper New Deal rests on a flawed view of history. >>> According Krugman, the only reason Roosevelt failed to bring recovery was >>> because he spent too little, not too much. At the same time, he tries to >>> have it both ways by stating that the crisis of the 1930s would have been >>> "much worse" without the New Deal. >>> >>> A key problem with Krugman's analysis is that it does not adequately >>> explain why the decade-long New Deal era depression lasted so much longer >>> than previous depressions. Prior to the 1930s, depressions (as in the sharp >>> and short downturn of 1921 and 1922) had typically lasted for two to three >>> years. The predominant anti-depression policy before Hoover and Roosevelt >>> was to cut spending, balance budgets, and let prices, profits, and wages >>> readjust to more sustainable levels. Yet Krugman regards this older approach >>> for curing depressions as "much worse" than the New Deal. The logical >>> implication of his argument is that the New Deal, modest as it was, would >>> have made the Great Depression at least somewhat shorter than previous >>> downturns. The fact that it did not stands as a stunning indictment of FDR's >>> policies. >>> >>> The unprecedented duration of the depression also represents an >>> indictment of Herbert Hoover's approach. This was because Hoover intervened >>> too much not, as Krugman would have it, too little. Krugman's article >>> neglects the relevant point that Hoover had pursued a mini-New Deal from >>> 1929 to 1933 via programs such as the Reconstruction Finance Corporation and >>> the Federal Farm Board. It was Hoover, not Roosevelt, who was the first >>> president to reject the advice of the "leave it alone liquidationists." >>> Instead of letting malinvestments (or toxic assets in today's parlance) >>> readjust at a lower level, he desperately propped them up. In great part >>> because of Hoover's high-wage policies, real wages were actually 12 percent >>> higher in 1932 than in 1929! Meanwhile, of course, unemployment advanced to >>> record levels as businesses saved on payroll costs by laying off workers. >>> Perhaps if Hoover had listened to the advice of the so-called >>> "liquidationists," the depression would have been over by 1931. >>> >>> More troubling, at least for opponents of war, is Krugman's dubious >>> contention that *"What saved the economy, and the New Deal, was the >>> enormous public works project known as World War II, which finally provided >>> a fiscal stimulus adequate to the economy's needs."* The evidence does >>> not support the view that that war was beneficial for the economy. In a >>> seminal article for the Journal of Economic History, Robert Higgs >>> convincingly >>> challenged <http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=138> the >>> Keynesian theory of World War II as put forward by Krugman and others. >>> >>> While unemployment disappeared during the war, it was hardly a step >>> forward. Moving men and women from the unemployment lines to the killing >>> fields of Anzio did not represent economic progress in any meaningful sense. >>> During the war, Americans at home suffered from rationing, shortages, more >>> accidents on the job, longer hours, and many other measures of economic >>> deprivation. Moreover, as Higgs points out, *"real personal consumption >>> declined. So did real private investment. From 1941 to 1943 real gross >>> private domestic investment plunged by 64 percent; during the four years of >>> the war it never rose above 55 percent of its 1941 level; only in 1946 did >>> it reach a new high." >>> >>> *According to Higgs<http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_01_4_higgs.pdf>, >>> genuine prosperity did not begin to return until the last months of 1945 >>> and 1946. This prosperity occurred under a policy of reverse Keynesianism >>> which included massive reductions in spending because of demoblization, >>> rapid steps toward price decontrol, and scaled back deficit spending. >>> >>> Higgs sums it up<http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=2188> >>> : >>> >>> World War II, the so-called Good War, has been a fount of historical >>> fallacies. One of the greatest – and one of the most pernicious for >>> subsequent policymakers – is the notion that prosperity prevailed during the >>> war. Although Americans might have been dying in the Pacific and European >>> theaters of war, people on the home front actually benefited from the war, >>> because it propelled the economy at long last out of the Great Depression. >>> This view of the war would be sufficiently egregious if it were true, but >>> despite the claims of historians for the past half century, it is not true. >>> >>> Obama's best hope to bring lasting recovery is to let the economy go >>> through a short, but sharp, readjustment. He needs to remove the >>> malivestments not, contra Krugman, perpetuate them. Obama can facilitate >>> this readjustment to a more sustainable level by cancelling the bailout, >>> cutting spending, and pruning deficits. Another worthy goal would be to >>> dismantle the Federal Reserve which helped to create this mess through its >>> easy credit policies. >>> >>> Most of all, however, Obama should end our costly empire by closing down >>> our overseas bases and bringing home the troops. Only then, can we start to >>> get our financial house in order and move towards genuine economic well >>> being. >>> >>> >>> http://www.lewrockw ell.com/orig8/ >>> beito4.html<http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/beito4.html> >>> __._,_.___ Messages in this topic >>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/message/5386;_ylc=X3oDMTM0cWcycGduBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BG1zZ0lkAzUzODYEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMjI2NjQ5NDY2BHRwY0lkAzUzODY-> >>> (1) Reply (via web post) >>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwdXRudnN1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BG1zZ0lkAzUzODYEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMjI2NjQ5NDY2?act=reply&messageNum=5386>| >>> Start a new topic >>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNWVxbGNlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIyNjY0OTQ2Ng--> >>> Messages<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaGRwbWI4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIyNjY0OTQ2Ng-->| >>> Files<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJmc2RhbDdzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2ZpbGVzBHN0aW1lAzEyMjY2NDk0NjY->| >>> Photos<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbWJsZTBzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Bob3QEc3RpbWUDMTIyNjY0OTQ2Ng-->| >>> Links<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJmcGs3M29kBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2xpbmtzBHN0aW1lAzEyMjY2NDk0NjY->| >>> Database<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJjbGJnMnByBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2RiBHN0aW1lAzEyMjY2NDk0NjY->| >>> Polls<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJmY3ZsbXE3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3BvbGxzBHN0aW1lAzEyMjY2NDk0NjY->| >>> Members<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJldGNndHMwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTIyNjY0OTQ2Ng-->| >>> Calendar<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYjRjaWM5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2NhbARzdGltZQMxMjI2NjQ5NDY2> >>> MARKETPLACE >>> ------------------------------ >>> From kitchen basics to easy recipes - join the Group from Kraft Foods >>> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13rkjn14i/M=493064.12016295.13271503.10835568/D=groups/S=1705060375:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1226656666/L=/B=Nv4fA0LaX.0-/J=1226649466655249/A=5530388/R=0/SIG=11nuutlas/*http://explore.yahoo.com/groups/kraftmealsmadesimple/> >>> [image: Yahoo! >>> Groups]<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMmpzcnYxBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjI2NjQ5NDY2> >>> Change settings via the >>> Web<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbnYwdm9yBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyMjY2NDk0NjY->(Yahoo! >>> ID required) >>> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest<[EMAIL >>> PROTECTED]:+Digest>| Switch >>> format to Traditional<[EMAIL PROTECTED]:+Traditional> >>> Visit Your Group >>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsowell;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcXJxZG1lBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzQzNDQyNTUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwMzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjI2NjQ5NDY2>| >>> Yahoo! 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