" FDR accomplished little until WWII." you don't consider saving the country as doing very much ? On Jan 13, 4:14 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > FDR accomplished little until WWII. Afterall, I guess the mortgage > crisis started this recession and who bought these homes they couldn't > afford, racked up enormous credit debt to emulate celebrities (now, > they appear on Oprah or are scolded by Suzie Ormand)- the people who > voted for Obama to bail them out. > > On Jan 13, 2:11 am, "florida mike !" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > i think Obama just like Roosevelt will make this new deal work as well > > or better than the first one . i just hope he doesn't fall victim to > > the republican rhetoric and try to balance the budget to soon during > > the process . > > > On Jan 13, 12:30 am, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > True, but the jobs are not sustainable. The Federal Government - the > > > most corrupt, ineffectual, wasteful and inept organization in the > > > history of mankind - to this you entrust nearly three quarters of a > > > billion dollars to 'create' jobs. That in itself makes this a bad > > > idea. But beyond that, those jobs are being bankrolled by the very > > > businesses that can provide sustainable employment if given a chance. > > > As government raises the tax burden on these businesses to fund its > > > operation, the ability of these businesses to fund their own payrolls > > > and invest in growth diminishes. And as these companies diminish, so > > > to does the funding the government relies on to run its operation. As > > > I said, eventually the battery will die. > > > > On Jan 12, 3:08 pm, "florida mike !" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > in this case the government will be creating jobs for americans by > > > > hiring contractors to rebuild our bridges and roads among other > > > > things . > > > > > On Jan 12, 10:51 am, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > It's not mythbusting, it's simply presenting a different opinion. > > > > > > > This argument is based on the limited view that wealth is mainly > > > > > > generated by loaning or borrowing at interest - a common enough > > > > > > assumption among financial people over the past 30 years. A more > > > > > > progressive view is that real wealth is generated by labor, combined > > > > > > with access to resources required for production. Putting people to > > > > > > work creates wealth. > > > > > > Businesses have always invested their capital to create more > > > > > > capital. The best parts of Obama's proposal involve getting the > > > > > > government to do the same thing. Conservatives are resisting this > > > > > > because don't believe that there's such a thing as the common wealth > > > > > > The idea that government, by putting people to work, will infuse the > > > > > economy is troubling because the government doesn't create anything. A > > > > > business creates goods and services, and consumers spend money on > > > > > these goods and services. This generates capital, which can then fund > > > > > jobs or be reinvested back into the business for growth. But > > > > > government doesn't do this. Government doesn't create it's own > > > > > capital. Government relies on business to fund it's operation, and so > > > > > as it increases it's spending it must draw more capital from business, > > > > > making it harder for business to reinvest or maintain a payroll. It's > > > > > like suggesting we use a battery to drive a motor to turn a generator > > > > > to create electricity to charge the battery. This doesn't work and > > > > > eventually the battery will die. > > > > > > On Jan 12, 9:42 am, "florida mike !" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Mythbusting the Obama Recovery Package > > > > > >http://www.truthout.org:80/011109E > > > > > > The self-serving myths about President-elect Barack Obama's economic > > > > > > recovery plan are starting to fly so thick and fast that we have > > > > > > been > > > > > > working full-time to keep ahead of them. Here's what you need to > > > > > > know > > > > > > to fire back. > > > > > > > Here it is: our moment of economic truth. We're standing at that > > > > > > historic fork in the road where the nation decides, now and for the > > > > > > foreseeable future, whether it's going to hang on to the > > > > > > catastrophic > > > > > > assumptions of the free-market fundamentalists and rely once more on > > > > > > the nostrums that have so far failed to fix the mess, or take a bold > > > > > > step down a new, more progressive path that will finally re-empower > > > > > > the American people to build an economy that works for us all. > > > > > > > As usual, the conservatives have absolutely no conscience about > > > > > > what they did to create this mess. If they did, they'd all be holed > > > > > > up > > > > > > in their gated communities or on their private islands, embarrassed > > > > > > into silence at best and terrified of peasant uprisings at worst. > > > > > > Instead, they're jetting into D.C. en masse in a last-ditch attempt > > > > > > to > > > > > > head the country off - or at least make sure that any money that > > > > > > does > > > > > > get spent ends up, as it always has, in their pockets. > > > > > > > To that end, the self-serving myths are starting to fly so thick > > > > > > and fast that the staff here at CAF has been working full-time to > > > > > > keep > > > > > > ahead of them. Here's some of what they're flinging in this latest > > > > > > B.S. storm - and what you need to know to fire back. > > > > > > > 1. The proposed recovery package is too big. > > > > > > > False. Most progressive economists agree (and Paul Krugman is > > > > > > downright emphatic) that it's going to take a minimum of a trillion > > > > > > dollars of well-placed investment to pull our economy out of this > > > > > > ditch. This is no time for half-measures, blue-ribbon committees, > > > > > > pilot projects, or trial balloons: this is a life-or-death crisis > > > > > > that > > > > > > requires immediate and massive intervention. > > > > > > > CAF Senior Fellow Bernie Horn puts it this way: "The American > > > > > > economy is huge and it's at a standstill. It's like a motionless > > > > > > 100- > > > > > > car freight train - or one going backwards slowly. A small > > > > > > locomotive > > > > > > simply can't pull it forward. We need an engine large enough to > > > > > > work, > > > > > > one that can create millions of jobs. If anything, a $775 billion 2- > > > > > > year plan may be too small rather than too big." > > > > > > > Dean Baker of the Center for Economic and Policy Research echoed > > > > > > this same thing on Rachel Maddow's show last Tuesday night. It's got > > > > > > to be big. And it's got to be now. Anything too small - or too late > > > > > > - > > > > > > and the American economy will be at serious risk of stagnating the > > > > > > same way Japan's did in the 1990s. > > > > > > > 2. If we can't afford (insert pet project here), we certainly > > > > > > can't afford this. > > > > > > > Yes, we can. What we really can't afford is a huge recession that > > > > > > undercuts the tax base. That's a vicious cycle that will make it > > > > > > increasingly harder to dig out the longer this goes on. The > > > > > > Congressional Budget Office projects that the current slowdown will > > > > > > cost the federal government $166 billion in lost tax revenues in > > > > > > 2009 > > > > > > - a number that could easily get even larger in coming years if we > > > > > > fall into a real depression. If we get on that trendline, we could > > > > > > lose a trillion dollars in government revenues by the end of Obama's > > > > > > first term. We need to invest what we have while we still have it if > > > > > > we hope to have a strong economy going forward. > > > > > > > This argument is based on the limited view that wealth is mainly > > > > > > generated by loaning or borrowing at interest - a common enough > > > > > > assumption among financial people over the past 30 years. A more > > > > > > progressive view is that real wealth is generated by labor, combined > > > > > > with access to resources required for production. Putting people to > > > > > > work creates wealth. So does ensuring that our current failing > > > > > > energy > > > > > > regime is replaced as rapidly as possible with one that's infinitely > > > > > > renewable and that we will finally be in full control of. And so do > > > > > > other kinds of infrastructure investments, which form the footing on > > > > > > which a new round of businesses can rise and thrive. > > > > > > > Businesses have always invested their capital to create more > > > > > > capital. The best parts of Obama's proposal involve getting the > > > > > > government to do the same thing. Conservatives are resisting this > > > > > > because don't believe that there's such a thing as the common wealth > > > > > > - > > > > > > which is how they've rationalized their plundering of our common > > > > > > assets. We need to make it absolutely clear that we do believe in > > > > > > the > > > > > > common wealth - and that their assaults on everything that allows > > > > > > America to generate national wealth are going stop, right here and > > > > > > right now. > > > > > > > 3. It's more important to balance the budget. Fix that, and the > > > > > > rest will take care of itself. > > > > > > > Read history much? Herbert Hoover is history's poster boy for the > > > > > > idea that balancing the budget during a recession is the best way > > > > > > known to turn it into a full-on depression. And that wasn't a one- > > > > > > off: > > > > > > FDR repeated the lesson in 1937, when he succumbed to the pleas of > > > > > > budget-hawk conservatives and tried to balance the budget - a move > > > > > > that put the brakes on what had, until then, been a solid recovery. > > > > > > > Looking forward, this year's numbers also show the case clearly. > > > > > > Economists are already estimating that spending by individuals and > > > > > > businesses will be off by $300 to $500 billion in 2009. The upshot > > > > > > of > > > > > > this > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum
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