On Apr 21, 7:21 pm, dick thompson <[email protected]> wrote:
> SteveMG wrote:
>
> /This is about torture or abusing them. Not holding them in jail. Or
> even killing them on the battlefield./No, this was about getting
> information from people who planned operations that killed thousands so
> as to prevent further operations that would kill thousands more.
You are describing ANY General staff, Executive branch, intelligence/
police agency in the world.
>
> /It's about stripping them of their humanity. Clearly, if you read the
> memos the OLC lawyers had these thoughts in mind while they outlined the
> interrogation techniques they thought were permissible./
The techniques are NOT permitted under conventions. Those conventions
have your signatures on them and were placed there after the bloodiest
conflict the world had ever seen after due consideration of the
horrors of a multi-faceted war.
Steve, we have
> people captured that have information, vital to our security who do not
> want to give up said information and are trained to not give up
> information. If the lawyers wanted to strip them of their humanity, it
> was so that they would then provide us with needed information that
> would save lives.
Again any army capturing any officer of rank.
KSM definitely knows information about other people in
> Al Qaeda. Definitively. Being the chief logistical planner he KNOWS
> definitively about any upcoming operations, that if carried out
> successfuly WILL kill people in excruciating ways. Any interrogation is
> not just to make them feel pain or humiliate them but to get them to
> provide the needed details. And the principle would hold even if they
> were just using the army field manual. They need to coerce information
> out of people that don't want to divulge said info. That will
> necessarily then be against their will.
I thought the greatest evil ever was defeated without these
methods...... they killed 6,000,000+ innocents.
> And if you read the memos they went out of their way to find ways that
> reduced damage or qualifications whereas they couldn't use techniques on
> said detainees that crossed over the line. For example, they introduced
> a technique to slam someone against the wall, but then also introduced
> something they would wrap around the persons head so that they didn't
> infact inflict undue damage, and they made the slamming sound louder so
> that it seemed that it was worse than it was, while they were in fact
> minimizing actual damage. They put insects in one guys room because he
> was afraid of insects, but then determined that they had to in fact tell
> him that they were not harmful so as to not cross a line. Do you think
> that when Al Qaeda captures a detainee that they have such
> qualifications.
You are NOT AQ and to lower yourself to that level denigrates all that
died in Uniform prior to secure those very Human Rights you now wish
to casuakky toss aside for convenience.
Did you ever see Nick Berg get his head chopped off?
I have witnessed two summary executions that were just as fast and
just as sure. I am sure you have at least seen photos of such a thing
by US allies. (never prosecuted, never punished, so you see it is ok
when reversed)
> don't recall seeing any interoffice memos about how that might be
> crossing a line for Al Qaeda.
Oh ?? Then explain the war on terror.
Yet, libs like yourself keep equating us
> doing our best to minimize harm on detainees and only using enhanced
> techniques when the default techniques failed with things like
> decapitations.
Decapitation, hanging, firing squad, electric chair..... Please
explain the practical difference when done correctly... then tell me
that your government has never botched one and took a "do-over".
It's frankly obscene of you to even make such comparisons.
> And while we're on the subject. Suppose we need to interrogate a
> prisoner and have used the field manual and he doesn't cooperate. In
> other words, standard interrogations failed. But we are reasonably
> certain that he has information about upcoming plans because he is a
> high level target. Can you envision anything we could do that you
> wouldn't construe as torture?
No, it's over.
I frankly don't understand why in your
> mind any interrogation whatsoever wouldn't be torture since those being
> interrogated don't like being in that position and we are simply
> treating them as a means to an end.
Funny THAT is EXACTLY what those "barbarous" peole say as well.
> /Why do we even have limits on how to treat these prisoners?
Neuremberg ring a bell ??
Why were
> the lawyers studying the law and trying to determine what was legal and
> what not? /
They were looking for ways to subvert the law... NOT uphold it.
Because we recognize that there is a line and we don't want
> to cross it, but also recognize that we need to get information from
> some high level targets that if we don't could lead to the deaths of
> hundreds/thousands.
Again true of ANY General staff, Executive branch, intelligence/police
agency in the world.
Name, Rank and serial number ring a bell ??
But this is also why we have safeguards built into
> any interrogations.
Yes, the safe guard is NO mental or physical abuse.
And the memos released are nothing but exceptions
> preventing the very torture that you say we are commiting. Does Al Qaeda
> have any such memos preventing them from sawing off someones head?
Isn't that why we are at "war" with them ??
But
> in your mind even raising the temperature in a room after all other
> means have failed is the equivalent to chopping off someone's head.
A VERY lame example but wrong is wrong.... premeditated wrong is
worse.
And
> actually here's a question. What was Nick Berg even interrogated about?
> He wasn't. They just chopped off his head.
A summary execution by our enemies is worse than one by or allies
now ??
>
> /Because we live by Western standards of morality and a respect for the
> individual; not a radical Islamic standard./Again, you're the one
> equating what we did which was nowhere near as brutal, done within the
> confines of trying to save lives and prevent further attacks versus
> simply chopping someones head off. Get some damn context,man. We make
> such distinctions in life all the time.
Dead does not come in degrees.
> If you are pulling someones teeth out becuase you want to hurt them
> you're a sadist. If you pull someone's tooth out because its a needed
> surgery you're a dentist.
Lets talk Mengela..... ALL of his research was used. They did not burn
the journals.
The dentist though is applying novocaine, only
> pulling teeth out that need pulling for the good of the patient.
> Interrogators, whatever their methods are not torturers simply because
> you say so,because those being interrogated don't like to be there.
If torture were not being used, if an action did not need a "newer,
kinder" definition, I doubt there would be dissent.
Such
> distinctions shouldn't have to be explained to moral people.
They don't. Moral people know they just should not be done.
Even in
> Christianity which has rules against murder there is the concept of a
> just war (which also requires killing people).
It is the very reason the Moslems are doing what they are doing, just
a different book.
> //
>
> // //
> // //
>
> // Posted by: jr565 | April 21, 2009 at 06:50 PM
> <http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/04/not-a-lawyer-or-even-a-...>//
>
> // //
> // //
> // //
> //
>
> /"Because we live by Western standards of morality"/
>
> The procedures used do not fall outside of the physical challenges
> demanded of our own soldiers. It is ridiculous to then claim they are
> too dehumanizing to employ against unlawful combatants who have commited
> war crimes in order to prevent further atrocities.
>
> Our standards of morality *include this for training.* On that basis
> what possible case can be made to exclude them against terrorists to
> prevent mass murder?
>
> //
> // //
>
> // Posted by: boris <http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/> | April 21,
> 2009 at 06:53 PM
> <http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/04/not-a-lawyer-or-even-a-...>//
>
> // //
> // //// // //
>
> //
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