answering a question with a bad question is folly. so which is more important ... your liberty and freedom or US nat'l security?
yeah, it's a tough question but the correct answer is nat'l security. On Jun 13, 3:01 pm, MJ <[email protected]> wrote: > What is 'national security'? > Regard$, > --MJ > "As Patrick Henry once said, "Take all my liberty, please! Just keep the > scary foreign bad guys away from me!"" -- Anthony GregoryAt 10:17 AM > 6/13/2013, you wrote:Americans have known about government data mining > programs for > decades. > What's new? People are talking about it. > Should our individual liberty and freedom come second to national > security? > On Jun 13, 7:36 am, MJ <[email protected]> wrote: > > "The overwhelming majority of German citizens believed that it was their > > moral duty to come to the unconditional support of their government in time > > of crisis, especially when the nation went to war. The good citizen didn t > > question whether his government was right or wrong. The good citizen placed > > his trust in the judgment and decisions of his government officials, > > especially during crisis and war. > > "That s what patriotism meant to the German people during the 1930s and > > 1940s. The good citizen -- the one who deferred to authority -- was > > considered the patriot. > > "What about German citizens who refused to defer to authority, those who > > had an independent mindset -- those who would examine government policies > > with a critical eye -- those who would question, challenge, and object to > > wrongful government policies? They were considered bad citizens -- > > traitors."Who Were the Patriots and Traitors in Nazi Germany?byJacob G. > > HornbergerJune 12, 2013 > > Ever since I was a kid, I have heard Americans ask, How could the German > > people have allowed the Nazi regime to commit its evil acts? > > Well, here s the answer to that question: The German people had the same > > warped and distorted concept of patriotism that American statists have > > today. > > The overwhelming majority of German citizens believed that it was their > > moral duty to come to the unconditional support of their government in time > > of crisis, especially when the nation went to war. The good citizen didn t > > question whether his government was right or wrong. The good citizen placed > > his trust in the judgment and decisions of his government officials, > > especially during crisis and war. > > That s what patriotism meant to the German people during the 1930s and > > 1940s. The good citizen -- the one who deferred to authority -- was > > considered the patriot. > > What about German citizens who refused to defer to authority, those who had > > an independent mindset -- those who would examine government policies with > > a critical eye -- those who would question, challenge, and object to > > wrongful government policies? They were considered bad citizens -- traitors. > > The best example of this phenomenon involves the story of the White Rose, > > an organization composed predominantly of German college students. If you > > haven t seen the movieSophie Scholl: The Final Days,I highly recommend it. > > Sophie Scholl, along with her brother Hans, were members of the White Rose. > > If you do see the movie, pay particular attention to the trial scene in > > which the presiding judge, Roland Freisler, comes down hard on the > > defendants Hans and Sophie Scholl. You ll notice something apropos to > > today: Freisler s mindset is the same as that of American statists today > > who are condemning Edward Snowden. In Freisler s mind, the Scholl siblings > > were bad Germans. They were traitors. Their parents had raised them to be > > despicable creatures. > > What had the Scholl siblings done? What was their crime ? They had taken a > > critical look at their own government in the midst of World War II. They > > had concluded that their own government was in the wrong -- that it was > > engaged in wrongful conduct. Knowing that they were risking their lives or > > liberty, they violated the law by secretly publishing and distributing a > > set of pamphlets called The White Rose, in which they exhorted the German > > people to rise up, stop the wrongdoing, and set Germany on a correct path. > > They were caught, primarily owing to the Nazi regime s extensive > > surveillance system over the German people. A college janitor saw them > > tossing White Rose pamphlets into the school courtyard and, being the good, > > little citizen he was, locked the doors and called the Gestapo. Hitler and > > his cohorts considered him a patriot. > > Not surprisingly, Hans and Sophie Scholl were quickly convicted and > > executed at the guillotine for treason. After all, the law is the law and > > citizens are expected to obey the law, as American statists never cease to > > remind us in the case of Edward Snowden. > > By the way, I would be remiss if I failed to mention that the Scholl trial > > did not take place in the regular German courts. After the terrorist attack > > on the Reichstag, and after some of the accused in that terrorism case had > > been acquitted, Hitler established a special tribunal called The People s > > Court to try terrorism cases and treason cases. Its purpose? To ensure that > > no more accused terrorists and traitors got acquitted. > > Another interesting World War II movie isDownfall,which is about Hitler s > > last days in his Berlin bunker. The movie revolves around his young > > secretary Traudl Junge. At the end of the movie, the real Traudl Junge is > > shown making a statement. She points out that when she accepted the job as > > Hitler s secretary, the last thing on her mind was that she was doing > > anything wrong. > > After all, Junge embraced the same concept of patriotism that most other > > Germans embraced -- the same type that American statists today embrace. Her > > job, as a good German citizen, was to come to the support of her > > government, especially during crises and war. > > But Junge pointed out inDownfallthat when she learned about the Scholl > > siblings after the war, she realized that she should have been asking the > > same types of questions that Hans and Sophie Scholl had asked. When she > > learned about Hans and Sophie Scholl, her concept of patriotism changed. > > Today, American statists are condemning Edward Snowden for breaking the law > > and violating his oath as a government subcontractor to keep secret from > > the American people the massive surveillance scheme that the > > national-security state has secretly imposed on Americans and on much of > > the rest of the world. Statists are saying that Snowden is a bad citizen > > and a bad person. They re calling him a traitor. They saying that he needs > > to be put on trial, perhaps even before the national-security state s > > special tribunal system at Guantanamo Bay. > > Where does conscience play into the American statist s concept of > > patriotism and treason? For the statist, conscience must be subordinated to > > the needs of the national-security state. All that matters to the statist > > is the undying loyalty that national-security state employees, contractors, > > and subcontractors (and American citizens) owe to the national-security > > state apparatus and to their oath to protect its secrets. > > For the statist, the national-security state is everything. It is god. It > > is daddy. It is big brother. Everything else, including conscience, must be > > subordinated to national security and to the national-security state s > > oaths, laws, rules, and regulations. > > The battle lines are forming in the case of Edward Snowden. > > On the one side are the statists, for whom patriotism means an > > unconditional pledge of allegiance to the national-security state and its > > deep and dark nefarious secrets involving grave infringements on liberty > > and privacy. > > On the other side are the libertarians and a few liberals and > > conservatives, for whom conscience and freedom reign supreme. > > Time will tell which side wins out. Time will tell which direction America > > heads > > in.http://fff.org/2013/06/12/who-were-the-patriots-and-traitors-in-nazi-germany/ > -- > -- > Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. > For options & help seehttp://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum > * Visit our other community athttp://www.PoliticalForum.com/ > * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. > * Read the latest breaking news, and more. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "PoliticalForum" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- -- Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PoliticalForum" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
