I say whatever I want to say, Virgil. And your simple mindness is showing too.
Good guys vs. bad guys. Black and white world. Bah. On 11/27/06, Virgil Bierschwale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Careful Helio, your apathy is showing. > > > Virgil Bierschwale > http://www.tccutlery.com > http://www.bierschwalesolutions.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Helio W. > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 8:15 PM > To: ProFox Email List > Subject: Re: [OT] Do you think McCain is right? > > OMG, you really believe the US only invaded Iraq to "liberate" their > people > from a dictatorship... That's pathetic. > > On 11/27/06, Robert Calco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Bill: > > > > On Nov 25, 2006, at 12:58 PM, Bill Arnold wrote: > > > > > > > > > Leadership by example is the solution you're looking for. When > > > everything is said and done, it is as self-evident and simple as that. > > > > > > > Truisms are always 'as simple as that'. > > > > > > > > > But we do make decisions every step of the way, and what we wind up > > > with is the cumulative result of those decisions, nothing more, > > > nothing less. > > > > > > For some reason this reminds me of Oliver Twist: "whether I am to be > > > master of my own destiny or whether that station will be held by > > > someone else ..." > > > > Therein was, and is, the appeal of what we've done: To give others > > that right. Certainly, average Iraqis and Afghanis had no such power > > before either invasion; now, despite the upheaval, they do. You seem > > all-too-comfortable with the idea that tyranny is OK as long as it's > > somewhere else, and we just mind our own business. > > > > Don't get me wrong: I strongly share that sentiment on a certain > > level. Frankly, it's up to people to liberate themselves from whatever > > shackles they endure, whether they be imposed from without > > (tyranny) or from within (guilt over sin, self-loathing). The struggle > > for freedom on every level is more "real" and the results more > > appreciated when you do it yourself than when a Knight In Shining > > Armor does all the grunt work for you. > > > > > > > > You want to keep shifting the frame of reference around in ways that > > > excuse these people, and I'm just not buying it. > > > > Herein I think lies our temperamental difference on this point: I am > > merely more of a Porfiry Petrovich at the moment, in contradistinction > > to your Javert. > > > > > Sure, human nature is > > > one of opposites, and that fact alone can and has generated > > > libraries full of discussion, but the case in point is the invasion > > > of the ME, it's utter failure, and what to do now. > > > > It's not an utter failure: that is one point on which I do NOT agree. > > > > > > > > We must do something. Can we agree on that? What I'm saying is that > > > we have an opportunity right in front of us, right now. > > > > And you want to waste it on another OJ trial? > > > > > The recent > > > elections give us a springboard - an excuse, if you will - to turn > > > things around. > > > > No I think in a way there were a form of self-punishment. Time will > > bear this out. > > > > > > > > Most people agree now that they don't want that war. > > > > Nobody "wants" war; they want peace, but some of us aren't so naive to > > think peace can only be gotten peacefully. However, when you are > > operating in ignorance, as we were on many levels (wall of separation > > between agencies, crippled field intelligence capacity, unclear > > picture of what to do after "victory"), the violent option usually > > doesn't pan out as hoped. (Even when you do, it may not. Sometimes > > what is necessary is by definition fraught with risk and uncertainty; > > this doesn't make it less necessary though.) > > > > Another point I'll make now is that democracies don't have the stomach > > for the kind of brutality that is required to win wars against > > cold-blooded murderers like these. The opposition party feels > > obligated, well, to oppose, in order to make the case for becoming the > > majority party--and they'd sooner vilify their own leaders in power > > than admit they are doing the job the people asked them, through the > > elections, to do. This dynamic alone divides the would be conquerer > > from within---now add to that the fleeting nature of our long-term > > memory in the modern age and you see the wisdom of Al Qaeda's > > long-term strategy. > > > > You should be afraid for the future not merely because the "neo-cons" > > promoted an ill-considered (if arguably righteous) move. Sometimes > > democracies need a little prodding from the outside (the barbarians in > > the case of Rome; these monsters, in our case, perhaps), but they > > always implode from within, often morphing into dictatorships. This > > would happen no matter what party is in power at the time, once the > > mores of the people have declined to a point that they lose their own > > principles. > > > > In other words, if not the neo-cons, someone else would have espoused > > these views, and done this thing (or something like it), all your > > pointing to their manifesto notwithstanding. Our current liberals in > > power now are no less prone to radical trust in human rationalism and > > the righteousness of their own position. You ain't seen nothing yet, > > and merely hanging the neo-cons won't prevent the folly of the next > > generation of leaders. > > > > > There is more then > > > enough evidence that is was launch based on lies and deceit. > > > > This is an arguable point, even though you don't see it that way. > > > > > I'm saying > > > that by holding the people who did the lying and deceiving > > > accountable, we can show the world that we are capable of > > > self-correction. It will be painful, but nowhere near as painful as > > > a larger war. > > > > I am saying it doesn't matter what we tell the world, or how kumbaya > > they feel about us. Moreover, I think the pain to come will make the > > current pain seem almost analgesic, especially if we react the way you > > suggest. Burn-the-witch mode is a lot of fun, and gives a great sense > > of release, because it gives us the false sense that the witch was the > > problem, not the evil that lurks in our own hearts, and turns us into > > what we hate. > > > > > > > > If we don't do this, then we have to do something else, and therein > > > lies the conundrum that we hear about every day: nobody knows what > > > else to do. > > > > > > > In such times it really is best to do nothing (else). But this answer > > goes against our ingrained sense of human can-do-ability. I guess I > > finally have lost that sense. Well, good riddance to it. > > > > > > > > > > > They did everything they could to wrap their mission to establish > > > authority in the ME in an altruistic disguise. But that, and the > > > mission, was a total failure. Why? Because all of the people can't be > > > fooled all of the time. > > > > It was not a total failure; but it was not a total success either. > > It's more a feeling that it failed because it wasn't a smashing, slam- > > dunk success on every level. I submit that the conclusion it is a > > failure is a short-term, short-sited perception, not a fact. This > > drama will be unfolding for decades, and alternate histories will be > > written about the decision---nor will all, if any of them, posit a > > better future had it not happened. > > > > > > > > > > >> If the war doesn't bankrupt us, Social Security, or entitlement to > > >> drugs, or any number of ill-conceived, moronically administered > > >> programs by self-proclaimed altruists that we perhaps don't even > > >> foresee will. This is the way of all flesh. > > > > > > > > > These are entirely different discussions that I look forward to > > > AFTER we > > > get ourselves out of that war. Hint: I'll be focused on these machines > > > and their potential to make all the difference we need. > > > > I'll know you achieved your dream when Bill Arnold is voted the > > unanimous victor of a presidential election by electronic "write in" > > even though he never campaigned and wasn't on the electronic ballot. ;-) > > > > Should I start calling you El Presidente now? Or would you prefer > > Commandante? > > > > >> > > >> But to equate Stalin to the neo-cons is absurd. > > > > > > > > > What's absurd is to remain ignorant of the real reasons for that > > > invasion. > > > > I think on some levels you are ignorant of the "real" reason. You > > have a strong set of opinions about what it was, but you no more know > > what was in their heart than you do what is in mine. There is a > > fundamental epistemological problem we all have when it comes to > > understanding the motives of others. > > > > > > I've identified 3 components that are all represented in the neocons: > > > Big Oil, the MI Complex (the arms merchants), and what I'm calling > > > "soldiers of Israel". > > > > I think the problem is bigger than the Israelis, who only get singled > > out because it's easy and hip to blame Jews. There are the Chinese, > > the Russians, and many other representatives of foreign interests who > > are always tugging at the strings of power here in ways injurious to > > our national good. You think there's something special about the > > Jewish lobby; I think the other lobbies are no less influential---and > > dangerous. > > > > Basically I don't trust any of them. > > > > > > > > > > > I have said many times that our attention *should* have been on the > > > blights that face mankind. It's just unbelievable to me that these > > > conditions can actually exist while our attention is being completely > > > stolen by the ME. > > > > Our attention should be on our families and our communities. "The > > world is too much with us..." > > > > > > > > > > > I'm saying a trial would bring out the truth. > > > > > > > Blech. The reality Bill is that there is only one truth you want to > > hear, and if the trial didn't bring that out, you'd just discount it > > as a sham. This is the problem trying to reason with you. > > > > > > > >> As much as I can agree in principle again that "making the > > >> world safe for democracy" is a foolish venture, and however naked > > > leaders in > > >> both major political parties right now seem to me in terms of coming > > >> up with workable solutions, I also do not see the results so far as > > >> anywhere near as obviously bad as you do. > > > > > > > > > You're stuck on a false premise: that the neocons had altruistic > > > motives. > > > > No, I'm stuck on a true premise: that neither of us know their > > hearts' motives (I bet for instance that many of them were at cross > > purposes), there is propaganda for and against all over the Internet, > > and none of us have genuinely true altruistic motives. And at the end > > of the day their motives are irrelevant. > > > > I'm stuck on another true premise: That two dictatorial regimes are > > no more, and 50 million people got to vote for the first time in > > their lives for a government they are now pretty much responsible for > > moving forward. The notion this would be easy always was nonsense, > > but it's better on many levels than dictators whose motives we know > > to be in direct contradiction to our national good (albeit the devil > > you know is always more comforting than the one you don't). > > > > > It was nothing of the kind, although it was packaged, prettied > > > up and sold on that basis, it was actually a grab for authority in the > > > ME. > > > > Where is that authority, Bill? > > > > > And not only did they dupe and degrade America with their mission, > > > they haven't been stopped yet. > > > > > It's sad that you think this way; you're setting yourself up for huge > > disappointment when they're gone. Or will you explain those days away > > on the basis that "they aren't REALLY gone"? > > > > > > > > > You're not paying enough attention to what's actually going on over > > > there. Turn off Big Media for a while and spend some time with > > > alternate > > > sources of information. > > > > I know how to research; I know what's out there. Thanks for the concern. > > > > > Look at the video clip Helio pointed to earlier > > > today, and then some of the other clips in that library. > > > > YouTube is clearly the source of all objective truth. > > > > > Read some of > > > the stuff in The Nation, > > > > Read Christopher Hitchens while you're at it. > > > > > Commondreams, the Huffington Post. > > > > That's basically a blog site for Soros shills. > > > > > It's obvious > > > that MSNBC is really trying to be more balanced, > > > > Boy are our perspectives different ... > > > > > but as yet is staying > > > away from direct confrontation with the neocons, to their great > > > discredit. Heck, just do a search on "neocons" and you'll find tons of > > > information on the subject. Here's just one link off the top page of > > > hits: http://www.antiwar.com/orig/lind1.html > > > > Bill, you're reading list is about as lopsided as it could be in the > > left-wing kook direction. I do for your information read all of > > those, and may others. > > > > I read the American Conservative as well, which is Buchanan's > > magazine that argues a sort of "paleo" conservative platform; they > > have been totally against the war since before it was popular to be > > so even among the Deaniacs, and they have been going on and on about > > the Jewish lobby and the "neo-cons" too. Some of their historical > > arguments are reasonable from time to time, and I've always liked > > Buchanan. But I can't quite get on the "blame the neo-con Jews" > > bandwagon or see the war in such uniformly negative terms. > > > > > > > > > > >> I still believe that the conflict pales in comparison to the > > >> magnitude of our losses in WWI, WWII, Korea, or Vietnam. > > > > > > > > > The size of the war is not as important as it's significance. We have > > > projected to the world that we believe we can solve our problems with > > > our mighty military sword. This is completely and utterly untrue. You > > > don't - and never will - hear the neocons crying for war with Korea. > > > Why? because the ME, not Korea, is what matters to them. Isn't that > > > really, really strange, considering that Korea really does > > > represent the > > > list of reasons that we launched a pre-emptive war to stop? > > > > > Your analysis on this point is quite incorrect. The Neo-Cons have > > been calling for the bombing of N. Korea and Iran for some time, but > > the administration was sold on a different course by diplomats > > anathema to the neo-cons. You seem to forget that the president has > > other advisors who aren't neo-con die-hards. > > > > > > > > > History is a very absorbing subject, and it has great relevance to the > > > situation today, but the fact is that FDR isn't alive today, and we're > > > not in a position to go back and change history. > > > > That's nice coy move to avoid my question. Do you think basically he > > did the same thing the neo-cons did, according to your theory? That > > is, he exaggerated a threat, allowed a tragedy to happen in order to > > get the public behind a much bigger war than they thought they were > > getting into (after all, Hitler didn't attack us)---all with the > > motive of becoming a world-dominating military empire? > > > > You'll have more credibility with me if you say "Yes". And > > paradoxically less credibility at the same time... > > > > > We can always > > > understand it better, but what we have here is a major situation > > > that's > > > going on as we speak, and while we can point to lessons of history, as > > > everyone agrees, we have to go forward from here. > > > > > Insofar as we cannot turn back the clock, that too is a truism. > > > > > >> How far do you want to take the absurdity? > > > > > > To a court of law. > > > > Which court? Which law? > > > > > > No more so then to blame all Irish for the IRA. But to deny that > > > "soldiers of Israel" have infiltrated Washington and our information > > > supply is to be ignorant. > > > > DC is swarming with the agents of foreign powers. Your singular focus > > on one group is what is ignorant. > > > > > AIPAC doesn't exist for America's benefit, yet > > > it's got hooks knee-deep into American politics. Did you even read the > > > Mearsheimer/Walt report? Here's another link: > > > http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html > > > > > I also know that throughout history ideologues have singled out > > Jewish influence on local politics as a way to acquire a populist > > grasp on power, which they always manage to turn into monstrous acts > > of violence. > > > > > > > > > Big Oil money/power is just one of the bedfellows; likely the > > > smallest. > > > The bigger players are the MI Complex (arms merchants) and the > > > Soldiers > > > of Israel. > > > > > > <clipped> > > > > > >>> There needs to be a trial so the real reasons can be spelled out > > > once > > >>> and for all. Agreed? > > >> > > >> Not yet. At worst I see bad policy implemented in a short-sited way. > > >> At best, I see a noble attempt to get at the root cause of the > > >> problem in the ME (tyranny and oppression of the Arab world by its > > >> Arab leaders) that has been tainted by ugly domestic politics. > > > > > > > > > But they weren't messing with us, we were messing with them. You want > > > the root of the problem, there it is. > > > > What are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > > > >> I need a lot more evidence before I'm willing to agree. > > > > > > > > > Check out alternative sources of information. There is plenty of > > > evidence already. > > > > All we have is circumstantial evidence, at best, or the pre-crunched > > numbers of people whose job it is to justify a party position, at > > worst, for every public position we hold, insofar as it relies on > > "facts". I get back to the problem of knowing what's true, and having > > a healthier doubt about one's own sources and suppositions. > > > > In case you haven't noticed, my position has been changing. As best I > > can tell you are as hysterical about this now as you were the first > > day I joined OT. I haven't witnessed yet any temperance or growth in > > your view, but I do enjoy probing the limits of my own views with you > > in the course of coming to terms with what's happening in the world > > today. > > > > I always find it helpful to debate people who have either a.) a > > solid, principled frame of reference, or b.) lunatic views that have > > a fascinating internal consistency, however badly they comport with > > observable reality. > > > > The types are nearly indistinguishable, and it takes some time to > > sort through all the issues before its clear which is which. I'm not > > sure which you are; there is always the outside possibility that > > enough of what you believe is true to justify some of your loonier > > notions. But I don't think I'm the activist type of mentality like > > you when it comes to "doing something" for demonstration or any other > > purpose. Hence, even if everything you say is true, I cannot imagine > > some trial. Show me some kind of evidence that Bush, like Hussein, > > ordered the gassing of thousands of innocent people, or, like Putin, > > arguably ordered the assassination of a political rivals and > > journalists, and I think I'd agree. But your "case" is hardly the > > stuff of real evidence so far. Hell even Hussein got more of a trail > > than you imagine for the neo-cons, and I presume Russian mafia sooner > > than Putin did it, probably to get at Putin. The point is, nothing is > > what it seems, and your certitude is premature. > > > > Seriously, YouTube? The Huffington Post? > > > > > > > > > > >> I think it would be counterproductive to embark on a political witch > > > hunt until > > >> we have come together as a nation and crafted a policy that is based > > >> on reality and takes a long view of the problem rather than > > >> seeking a quick band aid, as usual. But if we knew how to do > > >> that, we > > > wouldn't > > >> seek a feel-good political witch hunt instead. > > > > > > > > > That's the same as saying "no, don't operate, keep throwing band > > > aids on > > > it" > > > > > > > No, to the contrary: it's saying, rather than throw bandaids on it (a > > show trial), let's really operate (i.e., change how we all view > > government, and focus on reigning in the massive reach of the federal > > government, which I'd be the first to admit grew grotesquely under > > all-Republican rule; but it sure as hell isn't going to get any > > smaller now, either). A smaller government would mean all the big > > boogeymen you enumerate would have less to work with. > > > > > > > > > > >> History will judge whether what we did was wise. Right now we need to > > > > > >> focus on the real enemy. > > > > > > > > > That's right, but the enemy within. Iraq didn't launch a war on us, we > > > launched a war on them, and those who pulled it off committed an > > > unbelievably large crime. That it was such a large crime is why many > > > people have such trouble getting their minds around it. > > > > We do have enemies within. I agree all foreign lobbyists are among > > them. Millions of illegal (stress on the word: illegal) aliens are > > among them. Anybody, not just Jews, who holds allegiance to something > > other than our Constitution, is among them. > > > > This was for me the telling moment: when we gave them a fractious > > parliament, not a republican form of government. > > > > > > > > > > >>> The real mistake is thinking (again and again!) that any Western > > >>> country is going to decide Iraq's (and the ME's) future. > > >> > > >> I agree. Prior to 9-11 I would have agreed; after 9-11 I doubted the > > >> soundness of not intervening. Now I agree again. > > > > > > > > > At least we agree now. > > > > Don't get too excited. ;) > > > > We partially agree now, so far as I can tell only on the principle of > > exporting democracy being, as it were, folly. I think we believe its > > folly for different reasons. What are yours? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Incidentally, I voted for the neo-cons and supported the policy. I am > > > > > >> still not sure it was wrong, but I am quite sure it was naive. > > >> > > >> What, should I hang too? > > > > > > > > > Try "embarrassed" on for size, that you could have been so duped. > > > Especially you, with such a big education and all :) > > > > I wasn't duped. I made a conscious decision to support a policy I > > ordinarily wouldn't support for hopeful reasons (had nothing to do > > with actual possession of WMDs in stockpiles, and more to do with > > transforming the ME into a more forward looking land) and have merely > > come to realize that while the intent was good, human nature being > > what it is, and democracies being what they are, the odds of the > > positive thing you want to happen actually happening is a much longer- > > term proposition than elections cycles permit. The opportunities for > > failure and frustrations are much greater. > > > > And my education, such as it is, always incomplete, tells me that the > > ceterum censeo which which you speak about the "neo-cons" and what to > > do next is terribly naive as well. > > > > My answer for the short term is "do right by the Iraqis"; leaving > > them to these dogs alone is the wrong thing to do. Whenever you do > > something that radically interferes with another person's life, you > > are obligated to "do the right thing" and help them on their feet. > > I.e., if you're going to save a battered wife from her husband, you > > better not just leave her at the mercy of her husband or any of his > > vengeance-seeking friends. > > > > > > > > > > > We are still in the birth stages of a whole new age. We can use the > > > tools at our disposal today to solve these problems, but we need the > > > leadership and direction to do so. > > > > I'm not sure what you're point is, beyond waxing eloquent about "the > > future with technology". > > > > > > > > > We are victims of the opposites, no doubt about that. Our mission, > > > if we > > > decide to accept it <s>, is to see that goodwill trumps evil. > > > > Believe it or not I really believe that's the spirit in which most > > people supported the war, and despite some of the scales coming off > > our eyes about the realities of the commitment, I'm hopeful we'll > > find a way to help democratic movements in those hell-holes survive > > the Islamonazi purges that would immediately follow a precipitous US > > withdraw. But we have an even worse track record where that is > > concerned. > > > > > I'll > > > believe we've accepted this mission when we start to talk more > > > about the > > > problems in Africa then the ME. > > > > Well, my personal benchmark is a bit more modest: that I may finally > > get to enjoy a Thanksgiving weekend some year without exchanging > > 7,000 word epistles with you about the blasted neo-cons. > > > > ;-) > > > > - Bob > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > >> - Bob > > > > > > > > > [excessive quoting removed by server] _______________________________________________ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. 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