Kevin,
I wanted to follow up and let you know based on your recommendations, I have
been playing around with Xojo in a more in-depth way for the last 30 days and
while I can't say I'm expert by any stretch, I've been able to piece together a
little bit of working code using some of the examples and I'm fairly happy with
what I've accomplished so far. I'm approaching Xojo differently this time
(thanks to you) and I think perhaps this third attempt to learn Xojo may be
more successful.
First, I chose a project to convert from Foxpro to Xojo which is relatively
uncomplicated and makes sense to build in Xojo instead of trying to replicate
my main production work environment at this point.
Secondly, I've challenged myself to spend 30-60 minutes each day to make just
one thing work in the new project. Maybe it is just making a splash screen, or
creating a screen to add or edit items to a simple table, or figuring out how
to pass parameters to a window or use a new class/method/property/etc. By
limiting my time in Xojo, I don't get too frustrated and because the daily
goals are small, I get to celebrate a small win each day instead of feeling
like a failure because I'm still miles away from the finished product. This
strategy also gives me time in between sessions to think and process what I've
been working on and that has helped with my understanding greatly. Some days I
simply re-do what I did the day before because having thought about it, I come
up with a better way to accomplish the same thing.
Finally and most importantly, I've come to accept this will not be a quick
transition and accepting that fact has let me focus on the fun of learning
instead of the stress of trying to get a job done.
I'll post some updates later if anyone is interested in this journey with Xojo
I've started.
Thanks for all your comments and input!
Paul H. Tarver
-----Original Message-----
From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-boun...@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kevin J
Cully
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2019 10:53 AM
To: profoxt...@leafe.com
Subject: RE: [NF] Migrating Skills From Foxpro to Xojo
Hello Paul and other potentially Xojo interested parties,
First thing to remember is that Xojo is not Foxpro. It has different strengths
and weaknesses. I love programming in it as I find it simple and easy to get
started, but doesn't have many limitations to what it can do. Sound like
Foxpro? You would *never* program a modern video game in Xojo however. That
also sounds like Foxpro.
If you don't like Xojo, no problem. We can still be friends. Don't like the
closed source nature of it? Too expensive? Not enough events? Not data
centric enough? I get it.
There is a lot to like however.
1. First, it's not owned by Microsoft. Xojo is a USA based small company that
has been around for over 20 years, and has their developers and staff spread
out throughout the world. And they are really nice people that are interested
in developing a great product.
2. You can develop desktop, web and console applications. Yup, with a singular
code base of classes, you can share them across projects that target these
different project types.
3. It is multi-platform: Winblows, Mac, Linux, Raspberry Pi (Linux), and iOS.
Android apps coming soon but I'm not sure exactly when.
4. You can get started for free! You can download the IDE and build as many applications
as you like and use it forever without paying Xojo one cent. You only need a license
when you build and application (such as an EXE on Windows) and a license for the target
platform. I prefer the "Xojo Pro" license as it gets all of the platforms I am
interested in.
5. Licensing is reasonable in cost and scope. The cost for a Pro license is $700 and
gets you all updates for a year (typically 3-4 releases in a year) and you can build for
almost any platform. If you let your license lapse, you can continue to use that Xojo
IDE forever, you just won't get updates. A lot of developers pay for a license every
other year as a cost savings plan. You can develop as many solutions and deploy to as
many customers as you like. You don't need to let Xojo know about any of it! There were
several other "VFP Replacements" that wanted to know about your customers.
Unacceptable in my mind.
6. Xojo uses native controls. This is foreign to us. VFP runs only on Windows and we
don't even think about the fact that they are windows controls. Remember running old
Java applications and Windows and they seemed "funny"? The controls didn't
look right? That's because they were drawn in Java. Mac people hate that. Hate that
with a passion. A Mac app needs to look and work like a Mac app. Xojo (appropriately)
made the design decision that all platforms will use the target platform native controls.
Windows apps work and look like Windows apps. Linux apps look and feel like Linux apps.
Etc. Don't underestimate how important this decision was. This also means that Xojo can
be handcuffed to operating on the least-common-denominator of events and controls
however. Not seeing your favorite control built into Xojo? It might be because it isn't
available on all platforms. Don't panic! You can add it yourself or purchase it from a
3rd party supplier.
7. Xojo is database agnostic. It natively works with SQLite out of the box,
but has plugins to interface with Microsoft SQL Server, MySQL, PostgreSQL, and
anything you can access with ODBC. Not seeing your favorite database there?
There may be a plugin available either open sourced or as a paid solution.
MongoDB anyone?
8. Xojo holds a conference every year called XDC. (https://www.xojo.com/xdc/ )
At the conference will be the president of Xojo Geoff Perlman, their marketing
staff, and almost every single engineer and technical support staff in the
company. You can eat breakfast, lunch and dinner with each of them. Amazing
really. Did Microsoft send the engineers to the Foxpro conferences? Not that I
can remember. Perhaps they did. But, every single year Xojo steps up to the
plate.
9. The same good feeling you have with developing in VFP, you can have in Xojo.
Quickly prototype a solution? Grow a small system into a large
10. You can deploy web apps to Xojo Cloud with a single click (although it is a
little pricy) or you can deploy to a Linux server such as a Digital Ocean
droplet for as little as $5 per month (or something like $0.07 per hour).
That's really cool. Getting Foxpro supported hosting was pretty expensive and
hard. YMMV.
11. Don't like the book to learn Xojo? Check out the Xojo YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/goxojo
12. Want to learn Xojo by example? Xojo comes with *hundreds* of examples covering many
many subjects. When I'm trying something that I've never done before, I just click the
"New Project > Examples" and choose from the plethora of examples. I wish
Foxpro had that many examples when I got started decades ago.
13. I've developed a "VFP" class for Xojo to help. Want STRTOFILE() and
FILETOSTR() that works cross-platform? STRTRAN()? You can even ADDBS()? I'm happy to
share that and it helps ease the transition to Xojo. Eventually I stopped using these
functions and went native, but it was nice to transition.
... There is more good stuff about Xojo, but I'll stop here ...
Is it all good stuff? Heck no.
1. You cannot press a magic button and convert over your VFP solutions. The
languages are cousins of each other, but it will still be a rewrite. I chose
to just write new applications in Xojo and eventually I got to all Xojo.
2. Data handling is different. Xojo uses recordsets and not cursors. You handle the
data a bit more "manually" than the magic of ControlSources. It wasn't a big
deal to me, but it does keep you from creating forms with millions of data controls.
That might be a good thing?
3. The built in report writer is pitiful. For the most part, I write my
reports out to HTML/CSS and display into the browser. There is a 3rd party
report writer called Bikini Shorts that is really powerful and wicked fast.
(https://bkeeney.com/allproducts/bkeeney-shorts/ )
4. The Xojo community is pretty nice for the most part, but there are a couple
of people that are mean and petty. Be prepared to go into the Xojo forum and
read some of that. I think they're full of piss and vinegar because they know
that Xojo cares and is listening. For some people, the sky is always falling.
Some people just want to see the world burn. Most people are very kind and
helpful. That's the aspect to focus on and forget the nasty people. We don't
have time for that.
...
Okay. My fingers are moving on to other tasks. All I can say is that I like it
and I've created some good business solutions for my employer that I think have
made things better! Take Xojo for a spin. I like it and you may as well.
-Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: ProFox [mailto:profox-boun...@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kevin J Cully
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 4:57 PM
To: ProFox Email List <profox@leafe.com>
Subject: RE: [NF] Migrating Skills From Foxpro to Xojo
There's a lot there. I'm out of time for the day unfortunately. Let me give
you a full response on my thoughts on migrating to Xojo on Monday sometime.
-Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: ProFox [mailto:profox-boun...@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Paul H. Tarver
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 12:04 PM
To: profox@leafe.com
Subject: [NF] Migrating Skills From Foxpro to Xojo
I hijacked the original thread with a reply changing the subject and adding an
[NF] flag to the subject because a small comment Kevin made caused me chase a
different rabbit for a little bit.
I have reviewed Xojo on a couple of different occasions over the past few years
and I have tried to work my way through the book that was written to teach
people how to program it and I find myself drifting by the 3rd or 4th chapter
every time. Not a fault of the author; just rather a fault of me wanting
something a little more advanced. Anyway, I've run into a couple of hurdles
with trying to learn Xojo and perhaps someone here has some suggestions to help
me out.
Try not to laugh at what may be very dumb questions! :)
1) I build a lot of similar but customized apps using a shared library of tools
I've developed over the past 25 years. Every app I build contains a LOT of
forms, reports and programs shared by all my applications as well as a lot of
forms, reports and programs which are copied from previous projects and then
customized for the current client. While I have seen multiple Xojo advocates
confirm a similar process is possible, but I cannot find clear explanations of
how to make that happen.
2) Every Foxpro application I build starts with a .PRG which reads a
configuration .INI file and then setups up the environment, displays a splash
screen, checks my version numbers, calls a database update process if a version
change is detected and if all is good, it displays the main screen for the
user. Once the user chooses to exit my application, a shutdown process is
initiated and everything is closed in an orderly way. That having been said, I
have been unable to find source code to a simple, complete Xojo application or
instruction book that can walk me through the start to finish logic and firing
order of all the start-up and shut-down events and allow me to compare that to
the process I'm so familiar with in Foxpro.
3) Are there any good white-papers or books by Foxpro programmers that can
provide insights into translating my Foxpro knowledge and skill directly into
Xojo.
I use Foxpro on a daily basis for my business because I cannot find a language that
satisfies my clients' needs the way Foxpro does. I would love to be able to say I have a
backup language like Xojo, but I get only so far before I give up and go back to what I
know and love. So let's assume Kevin is correct when he states Xojo is " a viable
language for VFP developers" because I do not want to go down the rabbit hole of
considering all the other alternatives for this sake of this discussion and share with me
any tips that can help me understand Xojo on a higher level beyond just creating a simple
form. I want to understand Xojo at a Complete Deliverable Application level and talk
about mimicking the features I depend upon in Foxpro to share a library of tools, forms
and code across hundreds of similar custom applications.
Paul H. Tarver
-----Original Message-----
From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-boun...@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kevin J
Cully
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 8:11 AM
To: profoxt...@leafe.com
Subject: RE: false news....
Well, a lot of that article is correct, even though I don't want it to be. VFP
as a *language* is as secure as the programmer programmed it to be. VFP as a
*database* isn't secure itself. You can encrypt fields. You can encrypt the
directory that the data is stored in. But DBF data isn't secure. You wouldn't
store social security numbers or credit card numbers in Excel spreadsheets,
right?
I've haven't recommended DBFs for storage for over a decade now. There are
better storage mechanisms such as Postgres, MariaDB, and even SQLite which can
be set up as an encrypted database. VFP as a language is still valid, although
it will never be able to create 64bit applications but that is a different
subject. [Insert Xojo plug here as a viable language for VFP developers.] I
had a potential client where they based their primary keys based on employee
Social Security Numbers. They didn't like it when I told them that they'd need
a complete rewrite. Notice this would have been the case no matter what
language/technology they were using. It was just piss poor design.
It appears from the article, that when the vendor was notified of the
situation, that they were able to quickly address it although the article
didn't say what that solution was. Probably encrypted the field? Hash the
field with an external secured table containing the sensitive data? Who knows.
To me, that's a win. Hopefully the vendor contacts all customers notifying
them that there is a vulnerability and that there is a solution available.
As Ted Roche always says "Security is a process".
-Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: ProFox [mailto:profox-boun...@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Dave Crozier
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 6:07 AM
To: 'ProFox Email List' <profox@leafe.com>
Subject: VFP: false news....
Ignorance and stupidity still runs in the so-called “expert consultant”
fraternity.
“An outdated software that is used by about 200 Vermont municipalities and the
Vermont Tax Department has long contained flaws that exposed sensitive
information including Social Security numbers, according to an IT consultant
and the software company’s founder.”
“You could make a strong case that Visual FoxPro shouldn’t be used on a
government level,” Johnson said.
https://vtdigger.org/2019/02/05/consultant-outdated-software-left-worker-information-exposed-200-towns/
Thankfully the software owners realise that it isn’t a fault in VFP, it is a
fault in the designing of the infrastructure.
Expert:
Ex - Out of date
Spurt – a drip under pressure!!
Dave Crozier
Software Development Manager
Flexipol Packaging Ltd.
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Flexipol® Packaging Ltd
T 01706 222 792
E dcroz...@flexipol.co.uk
W https://www.flexipol.co.uk/
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