Yep, we seem to be basically of one mind Brian. Personally, other than bouncing a quick mail off of accessibil...@apple.com whenever a new version of Logic is out to remind them, I've taken a backstep for my own sanity's sake. Unfortunately, we don't all have the patience of Slau. The thing that infuriated me the most about Apple was that, in every response, they kept refering to accessibility as an upcoming feature, and we all know how Apple runs a tight ship on that front. Taking the tact that being able to use core established features with their own accessibility solution was quite different got me nowhere, no matter how chummily I wrote it. A couple years ago though I managed to scrounge email addresses and move up the chain a bit, eventually reaching the product manager (at the time) for logic by phone. Again, nada, nothing, zip.
I guess I'm just sharing the tail to make sure that anyone who might tread a similar path knows what to expect. Hopefully, someone will have more luck than me. Scott On 5/1/12, Keith Reedy <wa9...@gmail.com> wrote: > Brian and all, > > I am still pestering Apple about Logic. It is the same process that we had > to use to get GarageBand up to speed. > > To those who are interested you can and I hope you do write. > accessibil...@apple.com > Keith Reedy > Click the link below to download MP3's of Keith Reedy's music as a gift from > Bibles For The Blind. > > http://biblesfortheblind.org/download_music.shtml > > God gives His best to those who leave the choice with Him. J Hudson Taylor. > > > > > On May 1, 2012, at 12:10 PM, Brian Casey wrote: > >> Good info T.O.M and Scot. >> >> I didn't really know for sure but thought apple might be a better hunting >> ground, in terms of not alienating the developers at least, and that still >> might be a good way to look at things. >> >> Its unfortunate that Apple are so unresponsive in that respect though for >> their own aps. I mean the whole idea of Voice Over being built into the O >> S, or one of its great advantages is that it puts the developer in an >> easier position to latch on accessibility, or from another point of view, >> passes the buck to the ap developer, yet Apple don't do this themselves >> for a product like logic. I guess garrage band is more imediately useful >> and helpful for blind musicians. >> >> Anyway, the point is, maybe a more aggressive approach with the likes of >> apple would be much less damaging than a similar course with avid, at >> least at the moment. If you annoy the customer service peope etc in Apple, >> your not necessarily making the guys coding/marketing the programme hate >> you, so putting prolonged pressure on customer services at Apple may end >> up in the message being passed on that something to a new set of people >> who mightn't find it to big a deal. >> >> Brian. >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Scott Chesworth" <scottcheswo...@gmail.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 10:47 AM >> To: <ptaccess@googlegroups.com> >> Subject: Re: issues concerning the future accessibility of Pro Tools >> >>> Yep, I've experienced everything T.O.M wrote about below a couple of >>> years back on two separate approaches to Apple, the first being re >>> Logic, the second being re GarageBand with a bit of extra weight >>> behind me from my employer at the time. Both times, nada, at least >>> nothing up front, even though the timings suggest that accessibility >>> work on GB would likely have already been underway to some extent when >>> my report was submitted. The only difference I can see here, is that >>> Apple are responsible for the product itself and the accessibility >>> solution, so it's a faeture that wouldn't necessarily have to be added >>> quietly. I think that's a big difference, but that's only a "how the >>> world ought to work" opinion from one chap who really doesn't have the >>> time to do much other than expound it. >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> On 4/30/12, The Oreo Monster <monkeypushe...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> I am not sure bombarding apple is the way to go either, or that it will >>>> Yield any results. Apple is notorious for shifting resources around as >>>> needed, and are also notorious for not responding to or saying anything >>>> about future products untill the features are done and they are ready to >>>> make announcement. While the company may have grown alot over the years >>>> to >>>> where they may not have to shift resources around based on which >>>> projects >>>> are the main objective at the moment as much as they once did, the veil >>>> of >>>> secrecy hasn't lifted any. I think a similiar approach will work with >>>> apple >>>> that is working with pro tools. I say this because I know apple does >>>> employ >>>> some blind people, and that's the a pproach those with in the ranks of >>>> the >>>> company have been successful with, in terms of getting accessibility >>>> added >>>> to things. Also cosidering that garage band has quietly become quite >>>> usuable >>>> over the years i think we'll be left to discover any future >>>> accessability of >>>> apple's products on our own as a community again. >>>> - T.O.M >>>> >>>> On Apr 30, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Scott Chesworth <scottcheswo...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just a short reply to chime in with a "here here" across the board to >>>>> everything that's been said so far. Having dealt with a company >>>>> acquired by Avid recently, I wouldn't change a thing about Slau's >>>>> intended approach. And, aside from struggling to think of anybody else >>>>> equally qualified for the job, I'm 110% sure that changing our poster >>>>> boy would be massively detremental. >>>>> >>>>> Apple, IMHO, is a different kettle of fish, given that their DAW and >>>>> accessibility solution are both coded in-house (all be it a big >>>>> house), and also given their own approach of touting an integrated >>>>> environment. ON that front, the lines of communication are more open, >>>>> VO compatibility is a feature that could and should be publicised and >>>>> is long overdew. If anybody wants a campaign trail to blaze, that's >>>>> the one! >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for all the effort that's gone in so far Slau, I hope there's >>>>> plenty more where it came from. >>>>> >>>>> Scott >>>>> >>>>> On 4/30/12, David Eagle <onlineea...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>>> A brilliantly worded Email Slau. Thanks for all you have done. >>>>>> >>>>>> Agree with Brian's point about Logic. I would hope that steps are >>>>>> already being made to make Logic accessible. I would be happy to buy >>>>>> both ProTools and Logic just out of support. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 30/04/2012, Jim Noseworthy <jim.nosewor...@compuconference.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Hey Slau: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You're a class act. Thanks for all your work and effort. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Slau Halatyn" <slauhala...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> To: <ptaccess@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 12:25 AM >>>>>>> Subject: issues concerning the future accessibility of Pro Tools >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let me say that, in a way, I dread even addressing this subject >>>>>>> because, >>>>>>> frankly, I'm certain that this will be a long thread filled with >>>>>>> everybody's >>>>>>> two cents. While that's entirely reasonable and to be expected, it >>>>>>> often >>>>>>> devolves into opinions that are wholly unreasonable and suggested >>>>>>> approaches >>>>>>> that are downright ridiculous. That said, I will explain the lay of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> land >>>>>>> as I currently see it and will set out my intentions. Let me also >>>>>>> point >>>>>>> out >>>>>>> that, while I've been the de facto person responsible for liaising >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> Digidesign/Avid, I never asked to be that person. I believe I happen >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> currently be the most qualified person to perform that role and I'd >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> happy >>>>>>> to continue fulfilling that position but I won't engage in battles >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> comes to approach because I'm frankly uninterested in spending time >>>>>>> rallying >>>>>>> the troops and talking sense into irrationally motivated armchair >>>>>>> spokespersons. Now, allow me to put into perspective what has >>>>>>> occurred >>>>>>> over >>>>>>> the last two years: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When I initially flew out to San francisco to meet with folks at >>>>>>> Digidesign, >>>>>>> there was no telling how this was going to turn out. I think, most of >>>>>>> all, >>>>>>> they were impressed with how a blind person could access Pro Tools in >>>>>>> general under OS 9 with outSPOKEN, of course. It was no accident that >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> requested this scenario specifically. It was stunning how >>>>>>> inaccessible >>>>>>> Pro >>>>>>> Tools 7 was in comparison with voiceOver under OS X. I think this >>>>>>> made >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> important impression on the folks at Digidesign. Further, the >>>>>>> face-to-face >>>>>>> interaction was critical. In a way, I became the poster child for the >>>>>>> accessibility of Pro Tools. That was truly a good thing because it >>>>>>> made >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> situation real and tangible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It took a long time for something to finally happen regarding access >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> Pro >>>>>>> Tools. All the while, I maintained contact with Digidesign. >>>>>>> Specifically, >>>>>>> the person who took interest in the issue was David Gibbons, >>>>>>> vice-president >>>>>>> of marketing for digidesign. David knew that this was important and >>>>>>> assured >>>>>>> me that they would look into what needed to be done to make Pro Tools >>>>>>> accessible. As time went on, there were rumbles of dissatisfaction >>>>>>> within >>>>>>> some of the blind community with the lack of progress. There were >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> insisted there should be a class action lawsuit. How I wish that >>>>>>> happened, >>>>>>> if only to prove how truly ineffectual that would have been. Anyway… >>>>>>> >>>>>>> before I go on, let me back up a bit and point out that there was a >>>>>>> long >>>>>>> period of time leading up to the initial meeting with david where >>>>>>> nothing >>>>>>> was happening. We weren't even getting much response from anyone at >>>>>>> Digidesign. Rick Boggs finally sent me a draft for a petition that we >>>>>>> ultimately put online and harvested signatures. By this point, >>>>>>> Digidesign >>>>>>> became aware and actually contacted us about meeting. Now, I must say >>>>>>> that, >>>>>>> throughout all of this, everything continued to be very friendly and >>>>>>> non-confrontational. OK, back to the point where I left off… >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nearly 3 years after my first trip to Daly City, I got word that >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> good chance that there would be some progress toward the >>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> Pro Tools. To me and to many others, having patience in the process >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> concept of corporate timeframe paid off. Imagine how helpful a nice >>>>>>> lawsuit >>>>>>> would've been in the meantime, not to mention the utter improbability >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> pulling off such a feat? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, the way david managed to make this happen was by taking a >>>>>>> skunkworks >>>>>>> approach. Obviously, with a fraction of its user base affected by >>>>>>> VoiceOver >>>>>>> compatibility, it made sense to have the work done when resources >>>>>>> permitted. >>>>>>> all told, it really took one intern about 4 or 5 weeks of work to get >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> lion's share of Pro Tools to be accessible. There was always the >>>>>>> knowledge >>>>>>> that certain things would change like carbon windows becoming Coco >>>>>>> windows, >>>>>>> plugins changing formats, etc. Some of the work would be persistent >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> of it would undoubtedly change. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I flew out again and met with the programmer to go over the progress >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> communicated about various issues. Finally, in 2010, version 8.0.4 >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> released with VoiceOver support. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, this next point is very important and I suspect for some folks, >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> point needs to be driven home. Others will understand it readily. It >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> made very clear that Avid would not advertise the fact that changes >>>>>>> were >>>>>>> made to support VoiceOver and that, in no way would they provide >>>>>>> technical >>>>>>> support regarding Pro Tools and VoiceOver. Some people have a tough >>>>>>> time >>>>>>> accepting that fact. I'm not even going to waste time trying to >>>>>>> explain >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> obvious reasons why Avid would take that position and why it is >>>>>>> completely >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> reasonable position to maintain. >>>>>>> Onward. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In 2010 I went out to the AES show in san Francisco and met with >>>>>>> david >>>>>>> once >>>>>>> again to provide a list of things that still needed to be done >>>>>>> regarding >>>>>>> accessibility. It was understood that a similar approach would need >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> taken regarding resources, timeframe, etc. At a certain point, >>>>>>> however, >>>>>>> david left Avid. Theoretically, that shouldn't have made much of a >>>>>>> difference because the concept was already implemented and others at >>>>>>> Avid >>>>>>> had already been exposed to the work having been done and even saw >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> results in our previous meeting. At that point, David's colleague >>>>>>> (and I >>>>>>> believe it was possibly his senior at the time), Bobby Lombardi took >>>>>>> over >>>>>>> responsibility for future progress, at least as far as David was >>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>> Bobby was actually the first and only person out of the 8 or so at >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> prior >>>>>>> meeting to actually respond to my email of thanks. I purposely didn't >>>>>>> bring >>>>>>> David's departure up on this list because, for all intents, it >>>>>>> shouldn't >>>>>>> have made a difference according to David and, given the reaction it >>>>>>> probably would have gotten, I thought it best to proceed as if >>>>>>> nothing >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> fundamentally changed. Figuratively and literally, nothing did change >>>>>>> regarding accessibility but other things certainly changed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you're not aware, over the last 12 months, avid has undergone >>>>>>> extraordinary changes including the laying off of an enormous number >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> employees. I'm sure Bobby, being in charge of Pro Tools, probably has >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> hands full with the kinds of issues that affect thousands upon >>>>>>> thousands >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> users. Let's not fool ourselves and think that accessibility is >>>>>>> anywhere >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> his radar. That said, it is an issue he is familiar with and >>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>> responsible for. I use the word responsible not as an adjective >>>>>>> denoting >>>>>>> blame but purely as in being able to respond with some degree of >>>>>>> knowledge >>>>>>> and context. Ironically, Bobby is notoriously bad at responding to >>>>>>> emails. >>>>>>> This is something that David Gibbons himself indicated to me. I've >>>>>>> taken >>>>>>> David's advice on how to approach the situation and, at this point, >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> about to implement the next phase. In part, what makes things just a >>>>>>> little >>>>>>> difficult is timing. When it's not NAMM, it's NAB, when it's not NAB >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> AES Europe, when it's not AES, it's summer NAMM, etc. My goal is not >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> nail >>>>>>> Bobby down for progress but to get him to assign someone else the >>>>>>> responsibility of paying attention to accessibility. It clearly >>>>>>> shouldn't >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> in the lap of someone in as high a position as Bobby but someone who >>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>> have the entire product line on his shoulders. There have been others >>>>>>> suggested to me and I will approach them at the right time and in the >>>>>>> right >>>>>>> order. bTW, AES Europe ends today so presumably Bobby will be back >>>>>>> within >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> day or so. I hope to have at least some further direction within a >>>>>>> week >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> so. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, it's no secret who on this list takes the position that we >>>>>>> should >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> get on the phone and bombard Avid with our problems of accessibility. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> needn't point the finger. Let me just say that, in my opinion, this >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> categorically the wrong approach to take. I've said it before and >>>>>>> apparently, I need to say it again. The time for strength in numbers >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> petitioning and I'm not saying that it'll never come to that again—it >>>>>>> might >>>>>>> but not at this time. Every other option needs to be exhausted before >>>>>>> going >>>>>>> down that path again. Of course, who am I stop the stubborn but, I >>>>>>> assure >>>>>>> you, it does our community of blind users absolutely no good to go it >>>>>>> alone. >>>>>>> I'm not even going to bring up issues of communication skills or lack >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> them, misspellings and general lack of experience with the corporate >>>>>>> world. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The most significant change to accessibility of Pro Tools came at a >>>>>>> time >>>>>>> when there were a handful of users. This was before me, before Chuck, >>>>>>> Vinny, >>>>>>> Mike and almost every single person on this list. It was Rick Boggs >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> got >>>>>>> the ball rolling. Mark Bryan was another person who contributed >>>>>>> greatly. >>>>>>> This was the mid nineties. The next wave came when Rick initiated >>>>>>> discussions with digidesign in 2005. I've continued building upon >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> foundation. It takes time and patience. Believe me, if there's >>>>>>> anybody >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> wants and, more importantly, needs to have Pro Tools be accessible, >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> me. >>>>>>> Yes, of course, there are others as well but, frankly, the number of >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> people relying on Pro Tools on a daily basis for their livelihood can >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> counted pretty much on one hand. The number increases when you count >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> who use it as a hobby or even semi-professionally. The number would >>>>>>> increase >>>>>>> dramatically if it were to include the potential number of blind >>>>>>> users >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> simply can't afford to abandon Sonar for Pro Tools' current lack of >>>>>>> VoiceOver support in the area of MIDI. I'm quite aware of the scope >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> blind user base and yet I can't separate my personal investment in >>>>>>> this. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> need to have Pro Tools be accessible just as much if not more than >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> average user. Whenever I speak up on the matter, it's usually because >>>>>>> someone with little knowledge of the history inquires, and that's >>>>>>> perfectly >>>>>>> natural, or when someone suggests something that simply isn't a smart >>>>>>> approach. To attach the battle call "the squeaky wheel gets the >>>>>>> grease" >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> to view things in simplistic terms that ignores the nuances and >>>>>>> subtleties. >>>>>>> Yes, one can look at it in a simple way: we've gone so far, we still >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> way to go and we just want to know what we can expect in the future. >>>>>>> Simple, >>>>>>> right? Yes, simple but it's not as simple as 20 people picking up a >>>>>>> phone >>>>>>> and demanding answers., This isn't your local city council >>>>>>> representative's >>>>>>> office and you don't represent the overwhelming majority of the >>>>>>> constituency. It's actually mind-blowing that Pro Tools was ever made >>>>>>> accessible in the first place and doubly so the second time around. >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> confident that we'll gain ground in the future and it's just a matter >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will certainly continue to do whatever I can to facilitate that >>>>>>> eventuality. I ask nothing in return except for people's support and >>>>>>> understanding. If you differ in your opinion, there's probably >>>>>>> nothing >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> I can do about that. If there are lone wolves out there, hey, that's >>>>>>> beyond >>>>>>> my control. I'd like to think I have the confidence of most blind Pro >>>>>>> Tools >>>>>>> users. If anyone feels they can convince this community that I'm >>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> would like to take the reigns, I assure you, I'd be happy to hand >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> over in a heartbeat if everyone feels it's the right thing to do. I >>>>>>> gladly >>>>>>> invite anyone to state their case, by all means. I won't take it >>>>>>> personally. >>>>>>> However, if there are no reasonable takers, I'm happy to continue >>>>>>> trying >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make progress. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, it's Sunday night, I'm tired and I have a full week of sessions >>>>>>> coming >>>>>>> up so I'm signing off for the night. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Slau >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> http://www.davideagle.co.uk >>>>>> >>>> >>>> > >
