Nathan wrote:
afaict the focus is on introducing the benefits of EAV (and by extension rdf and linked data) as a data model that can be used by us all behind the scenes (reaping rich rewards), rather than just mapping our data to rdf / owl /linked data (and by implication EAV) at the publishing level.as more people consume and use linked data, rdf, owl, they come to realise the many advantages, and consider making the move to storing all data as rdf / linked data and working on it in the same way - I believe the Data 3.0 manifesto can be used to introduce the benefits of EAV behind the firewall (and help programmers get the model, data, understanding right in the first place) then go on to expose this all to the world as rdf / linked data. In many ways it's coming at linked data in the other direction, showing the EAV model, then the different ways of exposing the eav model (odata, gdata, rdf/linkedata) and people can work it out from there as to which is best. IMHO 1000 developers groking EAV and adopting it will be exponentially more benefit to the linked data / web 3 movement than 1000 developers all reading a few docs and mapping some rectangular data through to linked data without really understanding what's going on.
Well said! Basically, this is about "Linked Data" the prequel. You can't have Structured Data without a Data Model. We have a uniform (and innately universal) data model in EAV :-) Kingsley
Best, Nathan ps: John, that "Rectangular Data" thing is really catching on :-) pps: whilst talking about bridges, ask any bridge builder about the strength of triangles then relate to the trinity exposed via EAV. Jiří Procházka wrote:So essentially, all this is a cover-up maneuver to sell RDF to the people masked as something else, more familiar? If so, I understand why you feel this is necessary, after all the goal is not to sell the customer what he asked for, but what he really wanted but didn't realize or could fully express (this time customer being tech folk). Anyway I rather use and try to market RDF as it is, maybe it's a bit too fast for some, but I guess I've left too little people in utter confusion yet to try so different ways :) But before proceeding with your plan to fix RDF + Linked Data marketing, I ask you to consider also what in marketing RDF was done right beside what wasn't. For example RDF has clear name (Data 3.0? not very good name IMHO), the core model is very simple and has been numerously very well explained. On the other hand your manifesto sounds a bit too complex, more like a spec than a manifesto. For the effect I think you are aiming you need something very simple and striking... Not to mention it is first time I am hearing about EAV model, we all are from different backgrounds so this terminology won't have much of an impact I fear, though it is still good to introduce yet distant communities.... ;) For me greatest value of RDF and Linked Data lies in semantics - the ontologies (RDFS/OWL), which, as far as I understand it, the EAV model doesn't touch at all which in my eyes makes it only a bit better than tabular data models ("rectangular" as someone nicely coined some time ago somewhere). Overall it seems to me like building a sand island in middle of a wide river to ease construction of bridges across it... I guess you have tried building a bridge without the island a few times and it collapsed every time, so I understand why you are building the island. But maybe I got better steel and mine bridges would last... maybe... On one hand I am glad we try these various ways and on the other I keep myself asking if the gain outweighs the price of fragmentation... Best, Jiri Prochazka On 04/17/2010 10:51 PM, Kingsley Idehen wrote:John Erickson wrote:Hi Kingsley! Reading between the lines, I think I grok where you are trying to go with your "manifesto." For it to be an effective, stand-alone document I think a few pieces are needed: 1. What is your GOAL? It should be clearly stated, something like, "to promote best-practices for standards-compliant access to structured data object (or entity) descriptors by getting data architects to do X instead of Y," etc.Okay, I'll see what I can do. This document is really a continuation of a document that's actually missing from the Web, sadly. A long time ago (start of Web 2.0), there was a Data 2.0 manifesto by Alex James (now at Microsoft), so in classic two-fer fashion I've opted to kill two birds with a single stone: 1. Linked Data incomprehension (Technical and Political) 2. Data 2.0 manifesto upgrade and update.2. What is your MOTIVATION? I think this is implicit in your current text --- your argument seems to be that TBL's "Four Principles" are not enough --- but you need to make your motivations explicit and JUSTIFY them. If TBL's principles are too nebulous, explain concisely why and what the implications are. Keep in mind that they seem to be "good enough" for many practitioners today. ;)My motivation is simply this: Get RDF out of the way! The "RDF incomprehension cloud" is only second to what's heading across Northern Europe from Iceland, re. obscuring a myriad of routes to Linked Data comprehension. How can we spend 12+ years on the basic issue of EAV + de-referencable identifiers? Compounded by poor monikers such as: Information Resource and Non-Information Resource. We have Data Objects (Entities, Data Items etc.) and their associated Descriptor Documents (Representation Carriers or Senses), its always been so! Note, RDF "the Data Model" doesn't exist in the minds of the broader Web audience (I am not sending an inbound meme to the Semantic Web Community, my meme is being beamed to a wider audience that's taking way to long to grok the essence of the Linked Data matter). I (and many others) are utterly fed up with trying to accentuate the fact that RDF is based on a Graph Data Model. The initial "RDF/XML is RDF" conflation has dealt a fatal blow to RDF re., broad audience communications. EAV has been with us forever, people already use applications that are based on this model, across all major operating systems. Why not triangulate from this position (top down) instead of bottom up (which ultimately reeks of NIH rather than a Cool Tweak)?3. Be SPECIFIC about what practitioners must do moving forward. I think you've made a good start on this, to the extent that you have lots of "SHOULDS." I would argue that more specificity of a different kind is needed; if data architects SHOULD be following more abstract EAV conceptualizations, what exactly should they do in practice?Hmm.. will see what I can do. This is a seed document (I hope). Anyone (including yourself) should be able to add perspective to it etc..Finally, on the deeper question of motivation, I suggest that while a historical argument can be made that RDF is likely a subset or special case of EAV, the community has developed convenient and familiar languages for expressing RDF (such as N3 and Turtle); practitioners are much less familiar with EAV. Does the community really lose anything by using RDF as its shorthand?RDF is a variant of EAV courtesy of Generic HTTP scheme Identifiers for Names. Nothing in what I am saying or seeking dislocates RDF from the big picture here. It just isn't the item for starting conversations with people outside the Semantic Web Community (still very small in the grand scale of things). I am simply seeking to extend the picture (coherently) without unnecessary RDF specificity. OData, GData, Core Data, are all EAV model based, in the very worst case they make RDF based Linked Data easier to generate, thus a win-win. Sadly, that isn't how these other EAV based approaches are perceived, the gut instinct is to pick them apart as not conforming to the RDF based Linked Data principles (btw -- when TimBL added RDF and SPARQL to the meme, he basically put a crack in the pot IMHO).Perhaps you can suggest a pattern within current RDF practice that more strongly enforces EAV principles?RDF is all fine re. EAV. It about getting other communities (e.g. WEb 2.0) to adopt and exploit EAV via use of de-referencable Identifiers (Names). What I am hoping is that we just tweak how we introduce Linked Data, establish the fact that we have a common data model at the base, a model that we already use (in our heads) and across almost every application we've worked with to date. Then show how Linked Data is ultimately about deconstructing application data silos so that we have a much richer corpus of structured data, across a myriad of boundaries (application, OS, network etc..), that amenable to "data meshing" rather than "data mashing". IMHO. The Linked Data Value Proposition and Elevator Pitch is simply this: Individual and/or Enterprise Agility via Data Silo Deconstruction. KingsleyJohn On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Kingsley Idehen <kide...@openlinksw.com> wrote:Richard Cyganiak wrote:Hi Kingsley, Regarding your blog post at http://www.openlinksw.com/dataspace/kide...@openlinksw.com/weblog/kide...@openlinksw.com%27s%20blog%20%5b127%5d/1624 Great job -- I like it a lot, it's not as fuzzy as Tim's four principles, not as mired in detail as most of the concrete literature around linked data, and on the right level of abstraction to explain why we need to do certain things in linked data in a certain way. It's also great for comparing the strengths and weaknesses of different data exchange stacks.Thanks, happy its resonating. RDF has inadvertently caused mass distraction away from the fact that a common Data Model is the key to meshing heterogeneous data sources. People just don't "buy" or "grok" the data model aspect of RDF, so why continue fighting this battle, when all we want is mass comprehension, however we get there.A few comments: 1. I'd like to see mentioned that identifiers should have global scope.Yes, will add that emphasis for sure. I guess "Network" might not necessarily emphasize that strongly enough.2. I'd prefer a list of the parts of a 3-tuple that reads: - an Identifier that names an Entity - an Identifier that names an Attribute - an Attribute Value, which may be an Identifier or a Literal (typed or untyped). This avoids using the new terms “Entity Identifier” and “Attribute Identifier”.No problem.3. “Structured Descriptions SHOULD be borne by Descriptor Resources” -- I think this one is incomprehensible, because “to bear” is such an unusual verb and has no clear connotations in technical circles. I'd encourage a different phrasing.Will think about that, getting the right phrase here is is challenging, so I am naturally open to suggestions etc..3b. Any chance of talking you into using “Descriptor Document” rather than “Descriptor Resource”?No problem, "Descriptor Document" it is :-)4. One thing that's left unclear: Can a Descriptor Resource carry multiple Structured Entity Descriptions or just a single one?Descriptor Documents are compound in that they can describe a single Entity or a Collection.5. Putting each term in quotes when first introduced is a good idea and helps -- you did it for the first few terms but then stopped.Writers exhaustion I guess, will fix.6. I'm tempted to add somewhere, “Descriptor Resources are Entities themselves.” But this might be a purposeful omission on your part?Yes, this is deliberate because I am trying to say: "Referent" is the "Thing" you describe by giving it a "Name" so, anything can be a "Referent" including a "Document" (which has always been problematic in general RDF realm work e.g. the failure to make links between a ".rdf" Descriptor Document and the actual "Entity Descriptions" they contain etc. via "primarytopic", "describedby", and other relations.7. The last point talks about a “Structured Representation” of the Referent's Structured Description. The term hasn't been introduced. Shouldn't this just read “Descriptor Resource carrying the Referent's Structured Description”?Yes, so basically this is: s/bear/carry/g :-)What's your preferred name for the entire thing? I'm tempted to call it “Kingsley's networked EAV model” or something like that. Do you insist on “Data 3.0”?Well EAV is old, and one of my real inspirations for hamming its relevance to Linked Data is the fact that over the years I spoken with too many people that grok EAV but never connected it to the Semantic Web Project, or the more recent Linked Data meme. Imagine talking to founders of companies like Ingres, Informix, MySQL etc.., and witnessing them not making the EAV model connection; especially when you can't actually write a DBMS engine without comprehension of EAV, Identifiers, and Data representation (simple or complex data structure). How ironic!Best, RichardThanks for the great feedback, I think we're getting closer to the global epiphany we all seek !! -- Regards, Kingsley Idehen President & CEO OpenLink Software Web: http://www.openlinksw.com Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen Twitter/Identi.ca: kidehen
-- Regards,Kingsley Idehen President & CEO OpenLink Software Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehenTwitter/Identi.ca: kidehen
