The Draft minutes from the DOM 3 Events Voice Conference are
available at the following and copied below:
<http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html>
The next D3E voice conference is 18 March.
-Regards, Art Barstow
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
11 Mar 2009
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
0004.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-irc
Attendees
Present
Art, Doug, Olli
Regrets
Charles
Chair
Art
Scribe
Art
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Agenda Review
2. [6]confirm last week's minutes
3. [7]Action item review - Due this week
4. [8]ACTION-1 - Find All Open Issues For DOM3 Events and
Update the Specification - schepers
5. [9]ACTION 312 - Propose langauge to resolve ISSUE-44 -
schepers
6. [10]ACTION 318 - Research what SVG does for load - schepers
7. [11]ACTION 319 - Publish your findings about mutation event
implementation - Olli
8. [12]ACTION 320 - Talk to people at Opera about mutation
events - chaals
9. [13]ISSUE-44 (related to actions 312 and 318 above)
10. [14]ISSUE-39 (related to action 320 above)
11. [15]Publication schedule
12. [16]Other overdue action items?
13. [17]AOB
* [18]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 11 March 2009
<shepazu> sigh
<shepazu> ISSUE-44?
<trackbot> ISSUE-44 -- Should DOM3 Events cover the interaction of
events and the Window object? -- RAISED
<trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/44
[19] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/44
<smaug> hmm, "passcode not valid"
yeah, me too
agenda says "3661#"
<smaug> haa
<scribe> Scribe: Art
<scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB
Agenda Review
AB: agenda is
[20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html
... do other people typically join this call?
[20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
0004.html
DS: Travis from Microsoft used to join
... but we don't have to wait for him to start the meeting
AB: Charles created this agenda; mostly Actions, Issues and Pub
plans
... any change requests?
[ None ]
confirm last week's minutes
AB: any objections to confirming last week's minutes?
...
<[21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/att-0003
/D3E-webapps-090303.html>
[21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
att-0003/D3E-webapps-090303.html%3E
[ No Objections ]
Action item review - Due this week
AB: All of the D3E Issues and Actions are available at:
... [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
... I noticed 5-6 of the issues are in the RAISED state
... Briefly, what process is used to move an Issue from Raised to
Open?
... Just curious (we don't use RAISED state in Widgets)
[22] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
DS: raised means the issue is recorded
... it is changed to Open when the group agrees to take it on
... then we issue Actions against the Open Issue
<scribe> ... Pending Review means the issue is still open and
pending the actions related to it are closed
ACTION-1 - Find All Open Issues For DOM3 Events and Update the
Specification - schepers
AB: [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/1
[23] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/1
DS: that was recorded a long time ago to test Tracker
... I should close just close it
... I will change the Due Date to the 18th
... I haven't uploaded my changes yet
AB: I noticed the latest ED was quite old
DS: yes; I'm still getting back to it
... I will check in a new version before the next call (Mar 18)
ACTION 312 - Propose langauge to resolve ISSUE-44 - schepers
AB: [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/312
[24] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/312
DS: I have some wording in my draft
... I'll complete this action when I make my upload next week
... I will define a default action for the load event
OP: default action?
DS: no, sorry, I meant default behavior
... and let the individual specs override how the load event works
... i.e. how it is dispatched
... and what its target is
OP: yes, I think you are correct about the target
DS: we may have to talk more about the Window
... I'll have to redo the chart to include Window
OP: Window is the parent node above the document
DS: so bubble goes up to window?
OP: yes
... check the mail around ISSUE #44
... it is dispatched to Window but its target is Document
DS: need to be careful about HTML specific behavior
... don't want SVG and HTML doing diff things
<smaug> all the other events except load propagates from document to
window
<shepazu> ACTION: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window',
to add behavior like HTML's [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-323 - Coordinate with SVG WG about
'window', to add behavior like HTML's [on Doug Schepers - due
2009-03-18].
DS: if we put this in D3E it would get folded into SVG
OP: we can talk about default view and not Window
<shepazu> where window == defaultView
ACTION 318 - Research what SVG does for load - schepers
AB: [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/318
[26] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/318
DS: this is related to our previous discussion
AB: so what do we do with this then?
DS: leave it open
ACTION 319 - Publish your findings about mutation event implementation
- Olli
<smaug>
[27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html
[27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
0007.html
AB: [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/319
[28] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/319
OP: I sent some emails to the list today
<shepazu>
[29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html
[29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
0007.html
OP: no one supports everything
... Whenever mutation listeners are used, the relevant DOM
operations slowdown a lot in all browser engines
... I've been talking to the ARIA people
<smaug> "chaals> roughly, we don't see that changing them is a great
idea. We implemented them ages ago, and while they imply a
performance hit, they do something that seems useful"
AB: how do we reflect Chaals' comments?
DS: one way is mutation events as defined in DOM2
... i.e. keep them as they exist
... could find intersection of the browser and throw away others
... could define new model
... would like to have a more performant model
... and define a mapping from the new model to the existing
definition
... and deprecate those that aren't implemented by all of the
browsers
OP: Jonas made a proposal last summer
AB: do you have a pointer to that proposal?
<smaug>
[30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/01
46.html
[30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/
2008JulSep/0146.html
<shepazu>
[31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/01
74.html
[31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/
2008JulSep/0174.html
AB: so only 3 of the 7 mutation events are implemented by these
three browsers?
OP: yes, that's the case
... the slow down is amazing; used a deep tree
DS: the slowdown is actually a big usability issue particularly in
accessibility use cases
... because there may not be an indication it is occuring
... may need a dedicated ARIA event
OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events if for
example it was doing some location stuff
<smaug>
[32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0010.html
[32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
0010.html
<smaug> OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events
because it would slow down performance also for people who don't use
a11y stuff
OP: the email from Boris indicates the .style change also cause
slowdowns
AB: I think Olli completed this action right?
OP: yes I've already closed
ACTION 320 - Talk to people at Opera about mutation events - chaals
AB: [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/320
... should we skip this today?
[33] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/320
ISSUE-44 (related to actions 312 and 318 above)
AB: Issue is: What should D3E say about the window object and where
events are fired...
... [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/4
[34] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/4
DS: we've already talked about this
AB: this in the RAISED state; is that OK?
DS: yes
AB: anything else on Issue #44?
[ No ]
ISSUE-39 (related to action 320 above)
AB: issue is: Consider changing ordering/firing of mutation events?
... [35]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/39
... any discussion on this issue?
[35] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/39
DS: there are no related actions
... Olli, what are your thoughts?
OP: I'd like to get comments from Opera
... I think Jonas wants to change it
... anyone else?
DS: I think Maciej
OP: it's bad for implementations but OK for content authors
DS: but if perf is bad then that's bad for the authors too
OP: not clear when the events should be fired
AB: since Opera hasn't addressed Action #320, seems like we should
defer discussion until next week
DS: agree
OP: back to mutation events; chaper 1.7.7 ...
... the grey/gray block text
... why was that added?
...
[36]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Even
ts/html/DOM3-Events.html?rev=1.20&content-type=text/html;%20charset=
iso-8859-1#events-Events-eventgroupings-mutationevents
[36] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/DOM-
Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html?rev=1.20&content-type=text/html;%
20charset=iso-8859-1#events-Events-eventgroupings-mutationevents
DS: this was added for performance reasons
... in SVG, create element is used to make trees in the DOM but not
in the document
... mutation events aren't fired for things that are not in the
document
OP: I don't understand why
<shepazu> I propose that we state explicitly in the spec that if
there is no event listener registered, and if the event does not
have a default handler, then the implementation may choose not to
fire an event for that action (which is what browsers do)
AB: any comments on Doug's proposal?
OP: browsers do that for mutuation events
... other events don't slow things down as much
Publication schedule
AB: the question is: Are we still expecting to have a new Editor's
draft on 2009-03-18?
DS: yes, that is still the plan
... don't expect it to be ready to publish by then
... This is Action #321
[37]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/321
[37] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/321
AB: keep it open?
DS: yes
AB: so that would be another WD, right?
DS: yes
AB: any discussion on the LCWD?
DS: no we haven't discussed that yet; one step at a time
OP: events are hard; must get it right and they are core to so many
other specs
Other overdue action items?
AB: DOM3E Issues and Actions
[38]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
... what is Carmelo's role?
[38] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
DS: helping with the test development
AOB
AB: anything?
DS: none
OP: none
AB: meeting adjourned
Title: DOM 3 Events Voice Conference
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to
add behavior like HTML's [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
