Oh gosh, that's great but it's great++ with the dream-within-a-dream frame :D :*
On Sep 8, 2019, at 12:29 PM, python-ideas-requ...@python.org wrote: > Send Python-ideas mailing list submissions to > python-ideas@python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > python-ideas-requ...@python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > python-ideas-ow...@python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Python-ideas digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language > (Mark @pysoniq) > 2. Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language > (Antoine Pitrou) > 3. Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language > (Chris Angelico) > 4. Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language > (David Mertz) > 5. Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language > (David Mertz) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2019 16:00:11 -0000 > From: "Mark @pysoniq" <m...@pysoniq.com> > Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: Automatic translation of Python to > assembly language > To: python-ideas@python.org > Message-ID: <156795841188.4866.611255073798041...@mail.python.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I forgot to mention that I received private feedback that was useful with > respect to the technical discussion: > > The core technologies used are discussed in detail in the first five blog > entries -- that is the heart of the project. > > Mark > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 18:01:44 +0200 > From: Antoine Pitrou <solip...@pitrou.net> > Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: Automatic translation of Python to > assembly language > To: python-ideas@python.org > Message-ID: <20190908180144.3b07595f@fsol> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > How is your approach different from, say, Cython, Nuitka or Pythran? > > Regards > > Antoine. > > > On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 15:56:04 -0000 > "Mark @pysoniq" <m...@pysoniq.com> wrote: >> Hi, Anders, >> >> The availability of a free extension every 30 days is a big benefit to the >> Python community that may not be immediately obvious. That’s not your >> standard freemium, as it has all the “features” of the paid product -- full >> registers, multicore, SIMD and other optimizations – so when we say it’s >> $600 per year of advanced software, that’s true. Our view is that the free >> extension every 30 days can make a huge difference to a developer with >> funding limitations (like us). If that free extension makes their project >> much more successful, then the entire Python community benefits. >> >> We considered this as an open source project, but we haven’t done that for >> two reasons: >> >> We have looked for and not found a large enough community of volunteers who >> have the skills to translate Python directly to assembly language without >> intermediate representation, and optimize the instructions, to make it open >> source. >> >> Open source projects are often very underfunded and don’t have enough >> volunteers even from a larger pool of possible people. For example, at >> PyCon 2019 Victor Stinner eloquently discussed the funding problems at >> python.org – a shrinking volunteer base and growing issues list. >> >> If I am wrong and there is a large enough group with the requisite skills, >> then of course we’re very open to the idea of open source, but the >> technologies used are very leading edge. And again, if you view it with >> nuance, the $600 a year (12 extensions) could make a huge difference to an >> under-funded project, of which there are many! >> >> Mark >> _______________________________________________ >> Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-le...@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ >> Message archived at >> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/VTIZHUNUMKM7VTVMUCXP6LCZFKVSBUX5/ >> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 02:07:12 +1000 > From: Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> > Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: Automatic translation of Python to > assembly language > To: python-ideas <python-ideas@python.org> > Message-ID: > <CAPTjJmrEBT26k4Zz=bOyhMpTYoE9wgdOzzS=_z90hjyyqxr...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:47 PM Mark @pysoniq <m...@pysoniq.com> wrote: >> >> Hello to the list, >> >> I have an idea for Python that is non-traditional in that it doesn’t extend >> or modify existing Python language structure. >> >> The idea uses Python to translate Python, entirely under program control, >> directly to optimized assembly language .dll or .so files, called >> “extensions.” >> >> Extensions are called from Python using Python’s ctypes interface. The >> ctypes wrapper for each extension is created automatically. >> >> The goal of this idea is for Python to perform as fast or faster than C or >> C++, without leaving Python. > > Can you clarify here please: What exactly is the idea you're > proposing? That CPython make use of your project for its own > acceleration? That something be done in the language and/or > interpreter to make your project more effective? > > If your project does already exist, there doesn't seem to be a > proposal here - or else I'm just misreading this. > > ChrisA > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 12:14:58 -0400 > From: David Mertz <me...@gnosis.cx> > Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: Automatic translation of Python to > assembly language > To: Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> > Cc: python-ideas <python-ideas@python.org> > Message-ID: > <caebhw4zpqpeimnyk0ikdguc+_vhbt9t8nmm+9qwaokyvf+q...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="000000000000c07b0305920cf9b5" > > --000000000000c07b0305920cf9b5 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > I think the "proposal" is "people should give us money." :-) > > Yes, ads for commercial software do not belong on this list. > > On Sun, Sep 8, 2019, 12:08 PM Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:47 PM Mark @pysoniq <m...@pysoniq.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hello to the list, >>> >>> I have an idea for Python that is non-traditional in that it doesn=E2= > =80=99t >> extend or modify existing Python language structure. >>> >>> The idea uses Python to translate Python, entirely under program >> control, directly to optimized assembly language .dll or .so files, call= > ed >> =E2=80=9Cextensions.=E2=80=9D >>> >>> Extensions are called from Python using Python=E2=80=99s ctypes interfa= > ce. The >> ctypes wrapper for each extension is created automatically. >>> >>> The goal of this idea is for Python to perform as fast or faster than C >> or C++, without leaving Python. >> >> Can you clarify here please: What exactly is the idea you're >> proposing? That CPython make use of your project for its own >> acceleration? That something be done in the language and/or >> interpreter to make your project more effective? >> >> If your project does already exist, there doesn't seem to be a >> proposal here - or else I'm just misreading this. >> >> ChrisA >> _______________________________________________ >> Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-le...@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ >> Message archived at >> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/JFM= > ZEOQIUZMGW23VFID3PKMQ4RCP2BTR/ >> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> > > --000000000000c07b0305920cf9b5 > Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <div dir=3D"auto">I think the "proposal" is "people should g= > ive us money." :-)<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yes, a= > ds for commercial software do not belong on this list.</div></div><br><div = > class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep 8, = > 2019, 12:08 PM Chris Angelico <<a href=3D"mailto:ros...@gmail.com";>rosua= > v...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" > style= > =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Sun, = > Sep 8, 2019 at 10:47 PM Mark @pysoniq <<a href=3D"mailto:m...@pysoniq.co= > m" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">m...@pysoniq.com</a>> wrote:<br> > ><br> > > Hello to the list,<br> > ><br> > > I have an idea for Python that is non-traditional in that it doesn=E2= > =80=99t extend or modify existing Python language structure.<br> > ><br> > > The idea uses Python to translate Python, entirely under program contr= > ol,=C2=A0 directly to optimized assembly language .dll or .so files, called= > =E2=80=9Cextensions.=E2=80=9D<br> > ><br> > > Extensions are called from Python using Python=E2=80=99s ctypes interf= > ace.=C2=A0 The ctypes wrapper for each extension is created automatically.<= > br> > ><br> > > The goal of this idea is for Python to perform as fast or faster than = > C or C++, without leaving Python.<br> > <br> > Can you clarify here please: What exactly is the idea you're<br> > proposing? That CPython make use of your project for its own<br> > acceleration? That something be done in the language and/or<br> > interpreter to make your project more effective?<br> > <br> > If your project does already exist, there doesn't seem to be a<br> > proposal here - or else I'm=C2=A0 just misreading this.<br> > <br> > ChrisA<br> > _______________________________________________<br> > Python-ideas mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas@python.org"; tar= > get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas@python.org</a><br> > To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas-leave@python= > .org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas-le...@python.org</a= >> <br> > <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/"= > rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.org/ma= > ilman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/</a><br> > Message archived at <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python= > -id...@python.org/message/JFMZEOQIUZMGW23VFID3PKMQ4RCP2BTR/" rel=3D"norefer= > rer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.org/archives/list/pyt= > hon-id...@python.org/message/JFMZEOQIUZMGW23VFID3PKMQ4RCP2BTR/</a><br> > Code of Conduct: <a href=3D"http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/"; rel=3D"no= > referrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/= > </a><br> > </blockquote></div> > > --000000000000c07b0305920cf9b5-- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 12:28:45 -0400 > From: David Mertz <me...@gnosis.cx> > Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: Automatic translation of Python to > assembly language > To: Antoine Pitrou <solip...@pitrou.net> > Cc: python-ideas <python-ideas@python.org> > Message-ID: > <caebhw4y2qbhcenekfbv-gaw+hwjpubtznenooxxkwzd47xx...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="00000000000007eea505920d2ba1" > > --00000000000007eea505920d2ba1 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Also PyPy and Numba. > > Cython actually seems a bit different. Without annotations in a superset > language, Cython programs mostly just use the same CPython runtime > libraries. However, with a few type annotations sprinkled in (but not > actual Python syntax), it can get big speedups). > > PyPy actually tried to do direct-to-machine-code for a while. But my > understanding is that they decided=E2=80=94as did Numba=E2=80=94that buildi= > ng on top of the > work of LLVM was more effective (and more cross-architecture). > > Obviously, the ad for a commercial product leaves a bad taste in my mouth. > But it's also not like there aren't already 5 or more open source projects > that do a similar thing better already. > > On Sun, Sep 8, 2019, 12:03 PM Antoine Pitrou <solip...@pitrou.net> wrote: > >> >> How is your approach different from, say, Cython, Nuitka or Pythran? >> >> Regards >> >> Antoine. >> >> >> On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 15:56:04 -0000 >> "Mark @pysoniq" <m...@pysoniq.com> wrote: >>> Hi, Anders, >>> >>> The availability of a free extension every 30 days is a big benefit to >> the Python community that may not be immediately obvious. That=E2=80=99s= > not your >> standard freemium, as it has all the =E2=80=9Cfeatures=E2=80=9D of the pa= > id product -- full >> registers, multicore, SIMD and other optimizations =E2=80=93 so when we s= > ay it=E2=80=99s >> $600 per year of advanced software, that=E2=80=99s true. Our view is tha= > t the free >> extension every 30 days can make a huge difference to a developer with >> funding limitations (like us). If that free extension makes their projec= > t >> much more successful, then the entire Python community benefits. >>> >>> We considered this as an open source project, but we haven=E2=80=99t do= > ne that >> for two reasons: >>> >>> We have looked for and not found a large enough community of volunteers >> who have the skills to translate Python directly to assembly language >> without intermediate representation, and optimize the instructions, to ma= > ke >> it open source. >>> >>> Open source projects are often very underfunded and don=E2=80=99t have = > enough >> volunteers even from a larger pool of possible people. For example, at >> PyCon 2019 Victor Stinner eloquently discussed the funding problems at >> python.org =E2=80=93 a shrinking volunteer base and growing issues list. >>> >>> If I am wrong and there is a large enough group with the requisite >> skills, then of course we=E2=80=99re very open to the idea of open source= > , but the >> technologies used are very leading edge. And again, if you view it with >> nuance, the $600 a year (12 extensions) could make a huge difference to a= > n >> under-funded project, of which there are many! >>> >>> Mark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-le...@python.org >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ >>> Message archived at >> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/VTI= > ZHUNUMKM7VTVMUCXP6LCZFKVSBUX5/ >>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-le...@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ >> Message archived at >> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/3WZ= > Z7LYLN3DCDMQZASOSBLSVDUDSBWVO/ >> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> > > --00000000000007eea505920d2ba1 > Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <div dir=3D"auto"><div>Also PyPy and Numba.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di= > v><div dir=3D"auto">Cython actually seems a bit different. Without annotati= > ons in a superset language, Cython programs mostly just use the same CPytho= > n runtime libraries. However, with a few type annotations sprinkled in (but= > not actual Python syntax), it can get big speedups).</div><div dir=3D"auto= > "><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">PyPy actually tried to do direct-to-machine-c= > ode for a while. But my understanding is that they decided=E2=80=94as did N= > umba=E2=80=94that building on top of the work of LLVM was more effective (a= > nd more cross-architecture).</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a= > uto">Obviously, the ad for a commercial product leaves a bad taste in my mo= > uth. But it's also not like there aren't already 5 or more open sou= > rce projects that do a similar thing better already.<br><br><div class=3D"g= > mail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep = > 8, 2019, 12:03 PM Antoine Pitrou <<a href=3D"mailto:solip...@pitrou.net"= >> solip...@pitrou.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo= > te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"= >> <br> > How is your approach different from, say, Cython, Nuitka or Pythran?<br> > <br> > Regards<br> > <br> > Antoine.<br> > <br> > <br> > On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 15:56:04 -0000<br> > "Mark @pysoniq" <<a href=3D"mailto:m...@pysoniq.com"; target=3D= > "_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">m...@pysoniq.com</a>> wrote:<br> > > Hi, Anders, <br> > > <br> > > The availability of a free extension every 30 days is a big benefit to= > the Python community that may not be immediately obvious.=C2=A0 That=E2=80= > =99s not your standard freemium, as it has all the =E2=80=9Cfeatures=E2=80= > =9D of the paid product -- full registers, multicore, SIMD and other optimi= > zations =E2=80=93 so when we say it=E2=80=99s $600 per year of advanced sof= > tware, that=E2=80=99s true.=C2=A0 Our view is that the free extension every= > 30 days can make a huge difference to a developer with funding limitations= > (like us).=C2=A0 If that free extension makes their project much more succ= > essful, then the entire Python community benefits.=C2=A0 <br> > > <br> > > We considered this as an open source project, but we haven=E2=80=99t d= > one that for two reasons:=C2=A0 <br> > > <br> > > We have looked for and not found a large enough community of volunteer= > s who have the skills to translate Python directly to assembly language wit= > hout intermediate representation, and optimize the instructions, to make it= > open source.<br> > > <br> > > Open source projects are often very underfunded and don=E2=80=99t have= > enough volunteers even from a larger pool of possible people.=C2=A0 For ex= > ample, at PyCon 2019 Victor Stinner eloquently discussed the funding proble= > ms at <a href=3D"http://python.org"; rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D= > "_blank">python.org</a> =E2=80=93 a shrinking volunteer base and growing is= > sues list.=C2=A0 <br> > > <br> > > If I am wrong and there is a large enough group with the requisite ski= > lls, then of course we=E2=80=99re very open to the idea of open source, but= > the technologies used are very leading edge.=C2=A0 And again, if you view = > it with nuance, the $600 a year (12 extensions) could make a huge differenc= > e to an under-funded project, of which there are many!<br> > > <br> > > Mark<br> > > _______________________________________________<br> > > Python-ideas mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas@python.org= > " target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas@python.org</a><br> > > To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas-leave@p= > ython.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas-leave@python.o= > rg</a><br> > > <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.= > org/" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.o= > rg/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/</a><br> > > Message archived at <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/archives/list/p= > ython-id...@python.org/message/VTIZHUNUMKM7VTVMUCXP6LCZFKVSBUX5/" rel=3D"no= > referrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.org/archives/lis= > t/python-ideas@python.org/message/VTIZHUNUMKM7VTVMUCXP6LCZFKVSBUX5/</a><br> > > Code of Conduct: <a href=3D"http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/"; rel= > =3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://python.org/psf/codeofco= > nduct/</a><br> > <br> > _______________________________________________<br> > Python-ideas mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas@python.org"; tar= > get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas@python.org</a><br> > To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas-leave@python= > .org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas-le...@python.org</a= >> <br> > <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/"= > rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.org/ma= > ilman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/</a><br> > Message archived at <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python= > -id...@python.org/message/3WZZ7LYLN3DCDMQZASOSBLSVDUDSBWVO/" rel=3D"norefer= > rer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.org/archives/list/pyt= > hon-id...@python.org/message/3WZZ7LYLN3DCDMQZASOSBLSVDUDSBWVO/</a><br> > Code of Conduct: <a href=3D"http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/"; rel=3D"no= > referrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/= > </a><br> > </blockquote></div></div></div> > > --00000000000007eea505920d2ba1-- > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Python-ideas Digest, Vol 154, Issue 27 > ********************************************* _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/4VNGNGA7HTWL6M2T63ACHF27U6MTBCZA/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
