Just to add, the following Sourcegraph queries provide good evidence of
widespread use of this functionality:
https://sourcegraph.com/search?q=context:global+lang:python+%5C%5B%5Cs*:%5Cs*%28i%7Cj%7Ck%7Cind%7Cindex%29%5Cs*%5C%5D%5Cs*%5C%2B%5Cs*%5C%28.*%5C%2C%5C%29%5Cs*%5C%2B%5Cs*%5B%5Cw%5C.%5D%2B%5C%5B%5Cs*%28i%7Cj%7Ck%7Cind%7Cindex%29%5Cs*%5C%2B%5Cs*1%5Cs*:%5Cs*%5C%5D&patternType=regexp
https://sourcegraph.com/search?q=context:global+lang:python+%3D%5Cs*list%5C%28%5B%5Cw%5C.%5D%2B%5C%29%5Cs*%5Cw%2B%5C%5B%5Cw%2B%5C%5D%5Cs*%3D%5Cs*%5B%5Cw%5C.%5D%2B%5Cs*%5B%5Cw%5C.%5D%2B%5Cs*%3D%5Cs*tuple%5C%28%5Cw%2B%5C%29&patternType=regexp
------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, March 12th, 2022 at 1:41 AM, Christopher Barker
<python...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow!
>
> Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that just a couple days ago, Chris
> A lamented that Python-ideas seemed to
> Immediately reject any new idea out of hand? And yes, Chris, you have joined
> in the piling on in this case.
>
> I didn’t think it was that bad, but this thread has been pretty painful.
>
> I’m pretty surprised that folks seem to be denying that this proposal has any
> use at all.
>
> Is this a major need? Obviously not,
>
> As for “not every one line function..” I demonstrated quite clearly that its
> not a one liner, it’s not obvious, and as Marco pointed out, it literally has
> to be a built in to get top performance.
>
> Is the SC likely to think it’s worth adding a new method to a core built in
> for? Probably not.
>
> But not rising to the very high standard that changes to core Python need is
> not the same as a pointless or bad idea.
>
> Thanks Paul for laying out what would have to be done honestly.
>
> To rest of you Debbie Downers -. Really?
>
> -CHB
>
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 1:51 PM wfdc via Python-ideas
> <python-ideas@python.org> wrote:
>
>> So do you propose getting rid of the tuple type entirely or not?
>>
>> Do you see why it's useful to have immutability?
>>
>> ------- Original Message -------
>>
>> On Friday, March 11th, 2022 at 4:47 PM, David Mertz, Ph.D.
>> <david.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes. To be clear, immutability isn't a use case, it's a particular
>>> technique that can be useful for solving some problems.
>>>
>>> This is probably a clear enough example of the XY-problem as to be worth
>>> adding to the Wikipedia article on that topic.
>>>
>>> We sometimes see other similar proposals to e.g. "solve" the "problem" that
>>> Python isn't statically typed. That is, folks who want Python to be some
>>> different language.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 4:42 PM wfdc <w...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (To be clear, I'm saying David Mertz's proposal fails the immutability
>>>> criterion, not Christopher Barker's.)
>>>>
>>>> ------- Original Message -------
>>>> On Friday, March 11th, 2022 at 4:39 PM, wfdc <w...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Don't yell.
>>>>>
>>>>> You just effectively re-implemented Christopher Barker's solution (which
>>>>> was also present in the StackOverflow thread), with the downside that it
>>>>> fails the immutability criterion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Saying "just be careful not to mutate the original datastructure" isn't a
>>>>> solution. There's a reason we have immutable types: To enforce
>>>>> immutability. Otherwise, why aren't you proposing getting rid of the
>>>>> tuple type entirely?
>>>>>
>>>>> ------- Original Message -------
>>>>> On Friday, March 11th, 2022 at 4:29 PM, David Mertz, Ph.D.
>>>>> <david.me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 4:16 PM wfdc via Python-ideas
>>>>>> <python-ideas@python.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> why haven't you used a list
>>>>>>> 2. I don't want to modify the original sequence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a really easy solution for you that will even be more perfomant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Use a list and DON'T modify the original!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is ABSOLUTELY an XY-problem.... which fact was difficult to wrestle
>>>>>> out of you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> stuff1 = [a, b, c, d]
>>>>>>>>> stuff2 = stuff1[:]
>>>>>>>>> stuff2[2] = e
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
> --
>
> Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)
>
> Python Language Consulting
> - Teaching
> - Scientific Software Development
> - Desktop GUI and Web Development
> - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
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