On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 12:20:35 +0100, Stefan Axelsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> If GPL folks had their way, it would not be possible not to "share" >> _anything_ you create. It is widely acknowledged that GPL >> license has the "viral" aspect of extending itself on your >> software - can you point to closed-source licenses that would >> have this aspect? None of the licenses I've read except GPL has >> this aspect. >Then you haven't read very many source code licenses, many (perhaps >most?) that state that if you've as much as looked at the code you're >not even allowed to write somethings similar twenty years down the line, >or anything that remotely resembles something similar. I've read Novell license of internal development tools it provides (which I reviewed for some purpose). This is I think relevant part: "Novell grants you a non-exclusive license to use the Software free of charge if (a) you are [...] (b) you are a contracted vendor (c) your use of the Software is for the purpose of evaluating whether to purchase an ongoing license to the Software. [...] You may not: * permit other individuals to use the Software except under the terms listed above; * permit concurrent use of the Software; * modify, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble (except to the extent applicable laws specifically prohibit such restriction), or create derivative works based on the Software; * copy the Software other than as specified above; * rent, lease, grant a security interest in, or otherwise transfer rights to the Software; or * remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Software. Novell may have patents or pending patent applications, trademarks, copyrights, or other intellectual property rights covering the Software. You are not granted any license to these patents, trademarks, copyrights, or other intellectual property rights except as expressly provided herein. Novell reserves all rights not expressly granted." Other than that, the license had to do only with usual stuff of disclaimers, different jurisdictions, export controls, "US govt restricted rights", etc. Didn't find there anything that forbids me to develop smth similar, unless it's very well hidden in hooking into the technicalities of specific intellecatual property laws. I've also read similar IBM licenses -- granted, not very carefully. The thing that pissed off various bosses most strongly in my impression was that the EULAs typically limited or prohibited transferring the rights to use this thing, e.g. to spin-offs or organizations cooperating with us. It's bothersome in practice. None of that had anything to do with source code or reverse-engineering or developing similar products (if we wanted to develop similar products, we would not be using this thing in the first place, except for 'discovery' purposes). I'm not saying licenses like you claim don't exist. Sure, they may exist and they suck. The point is, they have _limited impact_ and by the very fact of their "exclusion" nature, this aspect tends to repel users than attract them to use this thing. >(Most do in fact >Now, Stallman might or might not want to achieve world domination, not >by sharks with lasers on their heads, but by aiming for all software to >be free software, but the GPL is actually a lot less ambitious than >that. All the GPL says is that: if you received a binary, the person who > provided you with it, must provide you with the source code that built >it. *All* the source code, not just what he happened to receive, on the >off chance that he's modified it. Which I find again wrong: suppose this developer used GPL-ed library A, developed patches B and C. He provided you with the source code of publicly available library A and a patch C, but he doesn't want to release patch B. Now, I know that it would cost you the effort to recreate patch B or maybe it wouldn't work without modifying patch C. But that's an economic concern, which is orthogonal to GPL, as GPL is (supposedly) about "free as in speech, not free as in beer". >And as having the source code without >being able to modify it would be rather pointless, you're allowed to do >that too, it's a given. If you don't want to distribute binaries, that's >fine, and all of the GPL falls. The GPL doesn't *force* you to share >anything. It only says what must happen if you do. True, not directly. However, by attempting to create the context in which it's IMPRACTICAL to use any non-GPLed software, it's attempting to achieve vendor lock-in effect, and while in such situation you FORMALLY would not have to give away, you PRACTICALLY would have to give away. It's not there in license that you "have to give away whatever you create". It's just attempting to create particular _economic_ context with those licenses, just like the licenses and practices of a well-known vendor do, even though that is not spelled out explicitly, obviously. >And I'm rather tired of the GPL's so called 'viral' nature. Look, if >you're using my code, you play by my rules, that's called copyright. Of course. The point is, _what is specific content of those rules_. Python's copyrighted, too: http://www.python.org/2.3.2/license.html And yes, we have to play by those rules, too. That obviously doesn't mean that specific conditions are the same, and those specific conditions are the crux of controversy. > If >you don't want to play by my rules, fine, don't use my code. Do I have to point at who is also attempting to achieve this particular context - "you don't like our licenses, don't use our software"? >So far I'm >no better than Microsoft, or Sun (though that might change) or IBM for >that matter. With the GPL I'm actually not as bad as that, I'll even let >you look at the code, modify it, and distribute copies willy nilly >(though you I'm not forcing you to), in fact, I'll even *forbid* others >from taking that right away from you. If you use it, however, as a small >token of your appreciation, you'll have to also agree to not take the >same rights you had away from others. I don't believe person A automatically has this sort of "right" of reading/using whatever they want. >Finally, what *you* do with *your* code is of no concern to the GPL. As >long as you don't use *my* code you can do whatever you please. But, and >that's a big 'BUT', it really irks me when people release code under >e.g. the BSD (or as has happened to me in the past, public domain), and >then bitch and moan when I incorporate parts of it in *my* software and >release the whole under the GPL. As if that was somehow 'unfair'. In a way, it is: you're taking liberties with their source and use it in a way they did not _intend_ to. Just because this person doesn't lock they house in hope other people will be considerate enough not to rearrange the furniture in it just for fun... Yes, their license _allows it_. So what. > Look, >(and I'm obviously not saying this to the parent poster as he never >expressed any such sentiment, I'm just venting) that's what *you* wanted >when you released the code under that license. If you don't want me to >do that, then don't use those licenses, mkay. Sure, if too many people do that, they will "lock" their house. And only then I think we will be back on the way to the 17th century style "secret science". You're talking about taking the maximum liberties of agreements and situations to achieve ideological goals. I claim that maybe it would be nicer to base this thing on good-willed consensus rather than paranoia and legal technicalities. -- It's a man's life in a Python Programming Association. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
