From: "geremy condra"<debat...@gmail.com>
At least 40% of my coworkers do not speak English as their native
language. Your problem is not the language. Your problem is your
attitude.
The atitude considered nice is just duplicity for convincing others, and I
don't like duplicity. I like to know exactly what the people think and I want
them know what I think.
I don't want to convince anyone, but I just want to inform the others and let
them know if they are doing something not recommended.
I agree, telling the people that they are doing something wrong, directly,
without sugar, might be considered a bad atitude by those who prefer duplicity
and nice words just for the sake of socializing, but is that atitude worst than
of those who don't care about discriminatory practices?
But I don't condemn you for this, because many years ago when I was in
school I had the opinion that some foreign colleagues are a little stupid
just because they were not able to express very well the ideas which were
not very simple, and well, they were not stupid at all, but they didn't know
my language well enough and they probably would think the same thing about
me if we were speaking in Russian.
I don't have that problem.
Oh yes you do as well as many others and it is obvious because I have seen that
some of you consider me to be very angry, but I am not angry nor nervous at all
so there may be something else.
If I say that I don't like a certain country because it attacks other
countries, it doesn't mean that I am nervous or angry. I am just expressing my
opinions about that country.
About those who use Tkinter I can't even say that I don't like them or
something like that, because it is very normal that most of Python programmers
should prefer it, because it was promoted a long time by Python. What I said is
that it is not OK that Python promoted and keeps promoting a GUI lib that
creates discrimination, but I don't know where you have seen that anger.
Exactly what I said. They are doing the same mistake as I did 20 years ago.
By the way, can't you see any syntactic dissacords in my phrases? Haven't
you think that my English might not be as fluent to be able to express
everything I want to say very well?
As I mentioned earlier, you'll find I don't have a lot of pity for you in this.
I don't need your pitty, but I can see that you misunderstand me, thinking that
I am angry, thinking that I want to force everyone to use a GUI lib, and I
thought that my English may not be clear enough to make you understand what I
want to say.
But not supporting accessibility because the programmer *doesn't want this*,
it is not a bug, but discrimination. Don't you agree with this?
And if Python would have been able to support accessibility it would have
mean that it promotes discrimination because it promotes the wrong tool, but
it seems that Python 3 doesn't have an accessible GUI lib for the moment, so
no, it is not discrimination (but Emile told us that there is no support for
WxPython in Python 3 just today, so I didn't know this and I already
wondered why nobody told about this real problem).
Keep in mind, I'm not saying this.
Saying what? I don't understand what you were not saying.
This is a sketch of your point of view and Tyler's point of view.
What has the phrase I told above with what Tyler said?
I said that if somebody can create accessible programs but doesn't *want* to do
that, this generates discrimination.
Don't you agree with this?
Well, I think that everyone should understand why the programs must be
accessible and why everybody should care about all the users of an
application and that it is not normal to not care.
Ah! I think I see where you're going wrong. It *is* normal not to
care- not just about this, but about any given special interest other
than your own. You have to convince people to care, or they don't- and
you're not convincing, just yelling.
Where did I say that it is normal to not care about other things?
I have also agreed that it is important to have support for Python 3, that it
is also important the commercial point of view, it is also important to have a
GUI lib without bugs that generates errors, and you are again and again
misunderstanding me thinking that I am yelling, even though I am writing all
these things very calm.
And I am not trying to convince anyone. I mean, we are not in the previous
century and I hope that I don't need to convince anyone that offering
accessibility for everyone is very important. Do you think that on this list
there still are members that need to be convinced about this things? Do you
really think that there are members that can't understand the importance of
accessibility and they need to be convinced, persuaded, motivated with nice
words? Do you have such a bad idea about them?
I am sure that they all know very well why the accessibility is important and I
was just trying to tell them that Tkinter doesn't create accessible apps.
You are also very unkind and rude when you say that the disabled that need
to use a screen reader should be a kind of second hand people that need to
beg for a little accessibility.
I don't say this. Don't try to stuff me into a strawman argument.
Then why do you ask nice words from me and an atitude which should be nice for
the others?
We are not negociating here and I am not trying to convince anyone. I am just
giving them the information that Tkinter creates inaccessible apps, and this
creates discrimination, which is very true. It is not nice to talk about these
things, , but first it is not nice for those discriminated, not for the others.
When you create a program, why do you create a visual interface for it? Why
don't you create just an audio interface?
I don't create a visual interface. I have never found it necessary for
my line of work, and have little stake in this discussion besides that
of advocating civility on this list.
You are confusing civility with dupplicity. I was very civilized here. I didn't
called names, I didn't used bad words but I am just trying to show why what the
majority does is bad. Well, from its point of view this may mean that it is not
civilized because it doesn't like it.
You do this because otherwise you would not please those who can see. Why
shouldn't be something normal, and that *should be not be discussable at
all* to offer the same accessibility to everyone?
You can discuss it. You just have to convince others that you're
right, and you're not doing that well. I offered you some advice on
how to go about doing it better.
Well, I see that you really think than now in 2011 the people need to be
convinced that the accessibility is important.
And you didn't say what was rude from what I said. You said just that it was
rude.
I can provide quotes, if you like.
Yes please do it.
Oh yes I know that it is unkind because most of the people don't even like
to talk personally with disabled people, but this doesn't mean that the
disabled people are something not normal, but those who have those biases
towards those who are very different.
I don't have this problem.
Oh yes you do have it, because otherwise you wouldn't consider my messages as
angry and not civilized just because they are not nice and candy and they don't
try to convince the others that they should do something, because they are
different from what you expect.
I think it would be better for the Python community if you were more
civil and for the disabled community if you were more successful. The
two go hand in hand.
I see that you see me as a paid advocate that should succeed convincing a
certain group to do a certain thing, but I already told that I am not trying to
convince anyone.
I just said that now in our era all the people should be very well convinced
about the importance of accessibility, and there are very many resources on the
net that talk about accessibility if there is somebody that doesn't know what
we are talking about, so I don't need to convince anyone.
But I think that this is a false argument, because I doubt that there are list
members that don't know the importance of accessibility.
More people have the power to accomplish what fewer cannot. You want
big changes, you will need big support, and people won't just move to
your side because you're angry. You have to convince them.
I am not angry, but I am not trying to convince anyone about the importance of
accessibility because its importance is very well known.
The problems are those who are aware about the accessibility but that still
don't care. They are the people that should be taken with nice words? Doesn't
that mean begging for a little accessibility as I said above?
If the majority doesn't care about the minorities which are minorities
without willing to be so, then it means that it is wrong.
I don't know that's the case, and I suspect there are shades of grey
you are not acknowledging here.
If you are acknowledging, then please give some examples of shades of gray.
Octavian
