On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 10:30:49AM +0200, Hanna Czenczek wrote: > On 24.07.23 19:55, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 03:59:32PM +0200, Hanna Czenczek wrote: > > > On 18.07.23 16:25, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 05:52:23PM +0200, Hanna Czenczek wrote: > > > > > When stopping the VM, qemu wants all devices to fully cease any > > > > > operation, too. Currently, we can only have vhost-user back-ends stop > > > > > processing vrings, but not background operations. Add the SUSPEND and > > > > > RESUME commands from vDPA, which allow the front-end (qemu) to tell > > > > > back-ends to cease all operations, including those running in the > > > > > background. > > > > > > > > > > qemu's current work-around for this is to reset the back-end instead > > > > > of > > > > > suspending it, which will not work for back-ends that have internal > > > > > state that must be preserved across e.g. stop/cont. > > > > > > > > > > Note that the given specification requires the back-end to delay > > > > > processing kicks (i.e. starting vrings) until the device is resumed, > > > > > instead of requiring the front-end not to send kicks while suspended. > > > > > qemu starts devices (and would just resume them) only when the VM is > > > > > in > > > > > a running state, so it would be difficult to have qemu delay kicks > > > > > until > > > > > the device is resumed, which is why this patch specifies handling of > > > > > kicks as it does. > > > > > > > > > > Signed-off-by: Hanna Czenczek <hre...@redhat.com> > > > > > --- > > > > > docs/interop/vhost-user.rst | 35 > > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-- > > > > > 1 file changed, 33 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) > > > > > > > > > > diff --git a/docs/interop/vhost-user.rst b/docs/interop/vhost-user.rst > > > > > index 5a070adbc1..ac6be34c4c 100644 > > > > > --- a/docs/interop/vhost-user.rst > > > > > +++ b/docs/interop/vhost-user.rst > > > > > @@ -381,6 +381,10 @@ readable) on the descriptor specified by > > > > > ``VHOST_USER_SET_VRING_KICK`` > > > > > or receiving the in-band message ``VHOST_USER_VRING_KICK`` if > > > > > negotiated, > > > > > and stop ring upon receiving ``VHOST_USER_GET_VRING_BASE``. > > > > > +While the back-end is suspended (via ``VHOST_USER_SUSPEND``), it must > > > > > +never process rings, and thus also delay handling kicks until the > > > > If you respin this series, I suggest replacing "never" with "not" to > > > > emphasize that ring processing is only skipped while the device is > > > > suspended (rather than forever). "Never" feels too strong to use when > > > > describing a temporary state. > > > Sure. > > > > > > > > +back-end is resumed again. > > > > > + > > > > > Rings can be enabled or disabled by > > > > > ``VHOST_USER_SET_VRING_ENABLE``. > > > > > If ``VHOST_USER_F_PROTOCOL_FEATURES`` has not been negotiated, the > > > > > @@ -479,8 +483,9 @@ supplied by ``VhostUserLog``. > > > > > ancillary data, it may be used to inform the front-end that the > > > > > log has > > > > > been modified. > > > > > -Once the source has finished migration, rings will be stopped by the > > > > > -source. No further update must be done before rings are restarted. > > > > > +Once the source has finished migration, the device will be suspended > > > > > and > > > > > +its rings will be stopped by the source. No further update must be > > > > > done > > > > > +before the device and its rings are resumed. > > > > This paragraph is abstract and doesn't directly identify the mechanisms > > > > or who does what: > > > > - "the device will be suspended" via VHOST_USER_SUSPEND (or reset when > > > > VHOST_USER_SUSPEND is not supported?) or automatically by the device > > > > itself or some other mechanism? > > > OK, I’ll add VHOST_USER_SUSPEND. > > > > > > So far I hadn’t considered making a note of resetting as a fallback right > > > in > > > the specification. I don’t think I would want it in the specification, > > > but > > > on the other hand, it is probably important for back-end authors to know > > > that if they do not implement SUSPEND, their device is going to be reset > > > by > > > qemu. > > > > > > Can we make that a ”may”, i.e.: > > > > > > ``` > > > Once the source has finished migration, the device will be suspended via > > > VHOST_USER_SUSPEND and its rings will be stopped by the source. > > I'm not sure what "its rings will be stopped by the source" means > > exactly. Is it summarizing the effect of VHOST_USER_SUSPEND or is there > > an additional action after VHOST_USER_SUSPEND that stops rings? And I'm > > not sure whether "by the source" means by the front-end or back-end on > > the source machine? > > This is pre-existing text and I assumed it (with not doubt) to refer to > GET_VRING_BASE, because that is how rings are stopped. > > I can improve the existing documentation and add the reference to > GET_VRING_BASE, and say that it clearly must come from the front-end.
Yes, please. > > > > No further > > > update must be done before the device and its rings are resumed. > > "Update" to what? Guest RAM? Device state? Rings? > > > > I feel like this text is too vague for a spec. People may interpret it > > differently. Can you make rephrase this to more concrete? > > Honestly, no. This is pre-existing, and I have the same questions as you > do. > > I cannot “rephrase” this to make it more concrete. I can try to actually > specify that was was left unspecified, but that would be a change in > specification that would require its own patch, separate from this series. I want to make sure that VHOST_USER_SUSPEND is well-defined. If it's pre-existing live migration text that doesn't involve VHOST_USER_SUSPEND, then it would be unfair to ask you to rewrite it. > > Personally, I’ve generally taken this sentence to be fluff. If the rings > are stopped, clearly, they should not be accessed at all. Probably the > back-end should also refrain from writing to guest memory, because that is a > logical conclusion from having the rings stopped. But now it’s even > clearer: The back-end ideally is suspended, which directly means not to > modify guest memory, and not to perform “background operations”. Updating > device state of course is possible through vhost-user commands, because > those must always be executed. > > So basically it’s just “Device and rings are stopped (RESUME and > GET_VRING_BASE, resp.), so you know, adhere to that.” > > Or maybe I’m completely wrong and “Once the source has finished migration, > rings will be stopped by the source. No further update must be done before > rings are restarted.” is to be taken together and the second sentence just > refers to the rings, i.e. the front-end stops the rings, and the back-end > must not update them. Or it means that the front-end must not send any > commands to the back-end until restarting the rings, but that feels > practically impossible. > > Again, because this sentence currently doesn’t specify anything, really, > changing it to carry any meaning would be to add to the specification, not > just clarify it. > > > > If and only > > > if the back-end does not support VHOST_USER_SUSPEND, the front-end may > > > reset > > > it instead (via VHOST_USER_SET_STATUS, VHOST_USER_RESET_DEVICE, or > > > VHOST_USER_RESET_OWNER). > > > ``` > > > > > > I’m unsure about the “If and only if” – older qemu versions will break > > > this, > > > but I feel like we must promise back-end writers that if they implement > > > SUSPEND, their back-end is not going to be reset; if it is, and something > > > breaks because of it, it’s the front-end that must be updated to match the > > > specification. > > I this the trick is to say "if and only if VHOST_USER_F_SUSPEND has not > > been negotiated". That way really only new front-ends that support > > VHOST_USER_SUSPEND are required to use suspend instead of reset and > > older versions of QEMU will not violate this statement. > > Ah, right, thanks! > > > > > - "before the device and its rings are resumed" via VHOST_USER_RESUME? > > > > And is this referring to the source device? > > > Yes, via VHOST_USER_RESUME, and restarting the rings by starting them > > > (i.e. > > > a kick). > > > > > > Whether this is referring to the source device… Well, the text as it was > > > before begs the exact same question, so honestly, I don’t know for sure. > > > “Restarting” only makes sense if the rings were stopped before, so I > > > assume > > > it’s referring to the source, e.g. for the case of a failed migration. > > > RESUME at least definitely will only happen after a prior SUSPEND, so this > > > one will definitely only apply on the source side. > > > > > > > Please rephrase the paragraph to identify the vhost-user messages > > > > involved. > > > > > > > > > In postcopy migration the back-end is started before all the > > > > > memory has > > > > > been received from the source host, and care must be taken to avoid > > > > > @@ -885,6 +890,7 @@ Protocol features > > > > > #define VHOST_USER_PROTOCOL_F_CONFIGURE_MEM_SLOTS 15 > > > > > #define VHOST_USER_PROTOCOL_F_STATUS 16 > > > > > #define VHOST_USER_PROTOCOL_F_XEN_MMAP 17 > > > > > + #define VHOST_USER_PROTOCOL_F_SUSPEND 18 > > > > > Front-end message types > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > @@ -1440,6 +1446,31 @@ Front-end message types > > > > > query the back-end for its device status as defined in the Virtio > > > > > specification. > > > > > +``VHOST_USER_SUSPEND`` > > > > > + :id: 41 > > > > > + :equivalent ioctl: VHOST_VDPA_SUSPEND > > > > > + :request payload: N/A > > > > > + :reply payload: N/A > > > > > + > > > > > + When the ``VHOST_USER_PROTOCOL_F_SUSPEND`` protocol feature has > > > > > been > > > > > + successfully negotiated, this message is submitted by the > > > > > front-end to > > > > > + have the back-end cease all operations except for handling > > > > > vhost-user > > > > > + requests. The back-end must stop processing all virt queues, and > > > > > it > > > > > + must not perform any background operations. It may not resume > > > > > until a > > > > "background operations" are not defined. What does it mean: > > > > - Anything that writes to memory slots > > > > - Anything that changes the visible state of the device > > > > - Anything that changes the non-visible internal state of the device > > > > - etc > > > > ? > > > My best answer (honestly) is: You tell me. This series is introducing > > > SUSPEND/RESUME because qemu wants to reset devices to make them stop > > > “background operations”, and this would break virtiofsd if any form of > > > reset > > > were actually implemented. The implementation of SUSPEND/RESUME in > > > virtiofsd on the other hand is supposed to basically be a no-op (besides > > > delaying ring processing until a RESUME, but even if we processed them > > > before, i.e. really make SUSPEND/RESUME no-ops, it would most likely work > > > out fine), so I have no idea what kind of background operations we are > > > even > > > talking about, or whether any such actually exist in practice. > > > > > > I don’t know what anyone had in mind when introducing the RESET. It comes > > > from vDPA (c3716f260bf moved it from vdpa into the common code), and > > > exists > > > since the code was originally added (108a64818e6), so there’s no comment > > > explaining why it exists. I can’t explain what the back-end is supposed > > > to > > > stop doing, because so far it isn’t explained anywhere in qemu, its git > > > log, > > > or in any documentation (there basically is no vdpa documentation). > > > > > > I can only say what I just completely naïvely assumed it to mean so far: > > > That the back-end basically should stop doing anything besides handling > > > and > > > replying to vhost-user messages. If such a message requires changing any > > > state, visible or not, then this state change is permissible. > > Okay, I suggest the following instead of "background operations": > > > > - Changes to the device state produced by SET_DEVICE_STATE_FD. > > This is definitely something that I would absolutely allow after SUSPEND. > If the front-end does not wish the back-end to do this, it can just not send > this command while the back-end is suspended. > > > > - Writing to memory regions. > > - Signalling that buffers have been used. > > This feels both too tight and not concrete enough. The only buffers I can > think of are buffers supplied through virt queues, which I intended to > already be included in “stop processing all virt queues”. (I took this to > mean the used-buffer ring, too, but I can of course be more explicit about > this, e.g. “stop processing all virt queues, including returning buffers to > the driver”.) “Signalling” sounds like triggering the callfd, but that also > seems clear; if you can’t process virt queues, including returning buffers, > you can never trigger the callfd (or send VHOST_USER_BACKEND_VRING_CALL), > because there can never be a new buffer returned to the driver. Yes, I was trying to use the language of the vhost-user spec related to the callfd. If the back-end has a timer for interrupt mitigation then it technically isn't doing any virtqueue processing after SUSPEND but might still signal the callfd when the timer expires. There is overlap with virtqueue processing, depending on how you define it. Maybe mentioning this separately is overkill. > > So too tight because it feels like a subset of virt queue processing, but > not concrete enough because “buffers” makes me feel like I’m overlooking > something besides virt queues. > > > - Signalling that the configuration space has changed. > > Maybe this could be more general, i.e. the back-end must not send any > vhost-user messages to the front-end? Yes, I was thinking solely of VHOST_USER_BACKEND_CONFIG_CHANGE_MSG but it could include all back-end message types. [I am reordering your reply, because this might be important before we continue below...] > Other than migration, qemu doesn’t see the device state at all. I don’t see > why internal state should not change between stop/cont. If a device > experience some signal that (for some reason) it can’t pause to receive only > after the subsequent RESUME, it might need to make note of that signal to > act on it after RESUME. I would consider that a change in internal state, > and I don’t immediately see a problem with it. (It may be problematic when > migrating, because receiving such signals on the source side after > transferring the state would mean they’re lost, but again, this is something > the device clearly has to solve, e.g. by redirecting the signals to the > destination starting with the SET_TRANSFER_STATE_FD call.) I only consider device state to be the data that is transferred over the device state fd. The other state in the back-end, like the pending signal example you mentioned, is not part of what I call the device state. > > The goal is to ensure the device state and memory regions are stable and > > that back-end doesn't trigger activity in the front-end. > > If the goal is to ensure that the device state is stable, I feel like we > must then specify precisely this, and not just to say it must not be mutable > through SET_DEVICE_STATE_FD: In general, the state is more likely to be > changed by other factors after all. > > On the other hand, I also don’t see why that’s a goal. For migration, it > might seem desirable, but I don’t actually think so: The back-end is > required to send a consistent device state anyway, so it is up to the > back-end to ensure the state is consistent, we don’t need to make it a > requirement for SUSPEND. It is implicitly clear from the migration model > that if the device state were to change after the back-end has sent it to > the front-end, those change will be lost on the destination side, so it is > clear that the back-end must anticipate this and work around it. I don't follow your last sentence. I agree that device state changes after the device state fd has been read would be lost on the destination. But that does not mean that it is valid to modify the device state while reading the device state fd (there is no iterative migration support yet). Are you assuming that SET_DEVICE_STATE_FD takes a snapshot of the device state and reading the fd reads the (consistent) snapshot? I worry that it may not be possible for all implementations to take a snapshot of the device state and then continue modifying the actual device state. This could be due to resource limitations or due to underlying API limitations. It would be easier if the spec forbid modifying the device state while the device was suspended. Stefan
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