On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:03:19 -0000, Jan Palenicek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I know I keep harping on about it but take another look at the >>> spectrum, >>> the best emulators for that Fuse (for linux) and Spin (for windows) are >>> both free. Someone can download one of those, then go to the world of >>> spectrum website and download all the applications they need to start >>> developing for it. The same can't be said for the QL. I suspect that's >>> one of the reasons why there are so few people developing software for >>> the QL. >> >> Yes but then you have to look closely at World of Spectrum. It is in >> effect a software archive - many of the programs have never been made >> public domain, but the people running the website are willing to take >> the >> risk that they will not sued. There are also a lot of the Spectrum >> software authors who are around and have given their permission. > > Amiga, Atari, CPC, XE, XL, MSX (hope you know what the letters mean) - > people decided to put such old software and games on the web and make it > available for free. Such software is called "abandonware", see wikipedia > term: > > Abandonware is computer software which is no longer being sold or > supported by its copyright holder. Alternativeely, the term is also used > for software which is still available, but on which further support and > development has been deliberately discontinued. Sometimes, it is used as > a blanket category for any software over a certain age, usually five > years. > > This has happened also for PSION PDAs, where Psion officially stopped > support (in ~2004) and some SW companies agreed to put their products > without support on the web for free. No this is two different arguments. Most of the QL software was written in the UK and the UK copyright laws do not recognise any such term as abandonware. I for one am unwilling to host downloads on my website which may leave me open to legal suits from the original author for infringement of their copyright. Under UK law, copyright lasts life + 50 years, so we have a long way to go. As a software author I also disagree completely with the argument of abandonware - many of the routines I have written in my software remain protected by copyright and have been used in other software on other machines - I would not want to give away the secrets to all and sundry. Indeed some of my code has been coded so as to make the method of circumventing certain problems particularly obscure so that I could easily identify where that code has been utilised elsewhere. Certainly I know of a few old QL software companies that would also take this stance particularly bearing in mind the money they paid for development of the software. The people concerned may not respond to emails but I do know that they also keep an eye on developments in the QL world still and would strongly defend abuse of their copyright. If you are willing to take that chance, then by all means, feel free to set up a website offering downloads, but you have to be aware that you are leaving yourself wide open for action. You have to remember that the copyright not only protects the look and feel of a piece of software, but also the particular codes used. Some of the older QL companies have actually been subsumed into much larger software companies and you never know exactly what code might have been used in software costing several 1000s of pounds. The argument for Psion PDAs is surely not applicable as in that instance you say the software companies agreed to put their products without support on the web for free. This has happened with some QL software as well. >> The QL has had authors disappearing quickly since the early days, >> meaning >> that the majority of development tools are not public domain and without >> any sources to allow further development. > > Disappeared author cannot receive money. Such software fits into > Abandonware (AW) category and could be made available. OK - show me the legal definition of abandonware in the UK and I will support this. >> Let's face it, Toolkit 2 was always one of the main requirements for >> good >> quality programs on the QL, yet how many years was that before it was >> able >> to released into the public domain. Where are all the public domain >> hoardes of people using free tools to develop that further? > > I can tell you, they are playing with other old computers. E.g. Amiga, > ZX... There is much easier way to get what you need. Actually I don't think that the QL users / programmers went on to program the Amiga and Spectrum. Some did move onto the Amiga, but the 68008 has actually created a much stronger breed of programmers than the Z80 - many have moved onto Unix, Linux and realtime programming (controls software, which is mainly 68000 based). >> So apart from not being able to compile SMSQ/e without a system running >> 68020+ instructions, what exactly is stopping all these people writing >> other software? > > I am mising more pages like Qdos Internals. HTML version of docs, > diagrams, schematics, source code, examples. Quanta has some software > and documentation library for members. This should be made available for > free. It is probably another "terrorist" approach in your eyes, but from > my outside point of view it is a must. Ah, but if Quanta made all this free, what reason would there be for Quanta to exist? It would offer no different benefits to its members than the general public (apart from the magazine). However, if someone wants to scan in the QDOS Reference Guide (with permission from Tony Tebby of course) and the Jan Jones handbook (with permission from Jan Jones), then feel free. Both Tony Tebby and Jan Jones are around and contactible, therefore feel free to ask for their permission. I doubt you will get it, but you never know. > I don't say that YOU need to do it. As Phil suggested, there are good > examples at ZX scene where people cooperated and provided results for > free. This will happen on QL if people will be interested and motivated > to do it. > > Answer this if you dare: What should motivate newcomers in writing QL > software? > Why is writting software easier on QL than any other old computer Apple > Lisa, Amiga OS, ZX or Atari? > > If you don't need new people and new projects - keep on current track. > QL will slowly phase out as the current memebers will get older and > older... The truth is that if people want to take on projects, let them come forward - I and Quanta have a wealth of second hand books and information which may be forthcoming for the right projects / programmers. Alas I do not have the time to scan in all of the books so they would have to be the printed versions - we do not have 1000+ people using the QL who could be called upon alas. It is more like 10-20 people who might be interested. As to motivation - what greater motivation do you need - the QL has a very small user base and you would get the undying thanks of every one of them. The main problem is that even when software does come out, so few copies are actually sold (even at £5 a copy) that both traders and software authors lose interest and the feedback is nil - this is all due to the size of the market which is ever diminishing. >>> Yes but then you have to look closely at World of Spectrum. It is in >>> effect a software archive - many of the programs have never been made >>> public domain, but the people running the website are willing to take >>> the >>> risk that they will not sued. There are also a lot of the Spectrum >>> software authors who are around and have given their permission. >> >> There is another major difference. The QL was never a games machine. It >> was marketed as a business machine and most of the software written for >> it was applications oriented and not games oriented. True, we had a few >> games, and some were very good, but we did not have the vast archive of >> games the Spectrum had. > > Let's make the QL games archive! At least these few games will be played > again (after 10 years of waiting on some microdrive). Erm - copyright problem - who is willing to take on the task? The other problem is getting past the copy protection and fact that most of the games software struggles to run on modern systems and emulators. Anyone remember Froggy - a great PD game, but alas, plug in any extra memory or even a disk interface and it refuses to run !! I probably have copies of most software ever written for the QL - if it was commercial I purchased it to support the QL, or got a free copy for review/testing. So I can provide the files, if someone can prove that they have permission for me to distribute it. >> We also, for the same reason did not have the >> vast user base either and a lot of the users left the QL when the PC >> became dominant because applications were faster and better on the PC, >> Looking at the Spectrum world is misleading and, as Rich points out, >> no-one there gives two hoots about licences, copyright or that kind of >> thing. They just want to play with their Jet Set Willy. > > I am not playing JSW on my ZX. I am programming utilities, demos and > meeting friends. It is all about having fun and talking to people who > understands "my language". Games were definitely my starting point on ZX > as for thousands of other people. You should know that games pushed > programming forward, because it was necessary for fast routines to be > developed. Shame for QL that there were no more games. I hardly believe > your interest in computers is coming from making spreadsheets in Abacus. > You won't be there now. > > Again, let me compare the principle: on ZX, Amiga, Atari, ZX...etc, no > one bothers about licenses in old software, because authors disappeared > or gave permission to make it available (including big games companies > like Ocean, Gremlin, Infogrames, Dynamic..etc). See above about AW. > > Why should this be an issue on QL to make old games and software for > free? > Maybe because the majority of people who provide feedback on this list are themselves software developers or traders and would do everything they can to protect their own copyright. -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services URL:http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk URL:http://www.rwapservices.co.uk _______________________________________________ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
