On 25.03.2013 11:27, Matthew Dowle wrote:
On 25.03.2013 09:20, Prof Brian Ripley wrote:
On 24/03/2013 15:01, Duncan Murdoch wrote:
On 13-03-23 10:20 AM, Matthew Dowle wrote:
On 23.03.2013 12:01, Prof Brian Ripley wrote:
On 20/03/2013 12:56, Matthew Dowle wrote:
Hi,
Please consider the following :
x = as.integer(2^30-1)
[1] 1073741823
sum(c(rep(x, 10000000), rep(-x,9999999)))
[1] 1073741824
Tested on 2.15.2 and a recent R-devel (r62132).
I'm wondering if s in isum could be LDOUBLE instead of double,
like
rsum, to fix this edge case?
No, because there is no guarantee that LDOUBLE differs from
double
(and platform on which it does not).
That's a reason for not using LDOUBLE at all isn't it? Yet
src/main/*.c
has 19 lines using LDOUBLE e.g. arithmetic.c and cum.c as well as
summary.c.
I'd assumed LDOUBLE was being used by R to benefit from long
double (or
equivalent) on platforms that support it (which is all modern
Unix, Mac
and Windows as far as I know). I do realise that the edge case
wouldn't
Actually, you don't know. Really only on almost all Intel ix86:
most
other current CPUs do not have it in hardware. C99/C11 require long
double, but does not require the accuracy that you are thinking of
and
it can be implemented in software.
This is very interesting, thanks. Which of the CRAN machines don't
support LDOUBLE with higher accuracy than double, either in hardware
or software? Yes I had assumed that all CRAN machines would do. It
would be useful to know for something else I'm working on as well.
be fixed on platforms where LDOUBLE is defined as double.
I think the problem is that there are two opposing targets in R:
we
want things to be as accurate as possible, and we want them to be
consistent across platforms. Sometimes one goal wins, sometimes the
other. Inconsistencies across platforms give false positives in
tests
that tend to make us miss true bugs. Some people think we should
never
use LDOUBLE because of that. In other cases, the extra accuracy is
so
helpful that it's worth it. So I think you'd need to argue that
the
case you found is something where the benefit outweighs the costs.
Since
almost all integer sums are done exactly with the current code, is
it
really worth introducing inconsistencies in the rare inexact cases?
But as I said lower down, a 64-bit integer accumulator would be
helpful, C99/C11 requires one at least that large and it is
implemented in hardware on all known R platforms. So there is a way
to do this pretty consistently across platforms.
That sounds much better. Is it just a matter of changing s to be
declared as uint64_t?
Typo. I meant int64_t.
Duncan Murdoch
What have I misunderstood?
Users really need to take responsibility for the numerical
stability
of calcuations they attempt. Expecting to sum 20 million large
numbers exactly is unrealistic.
Trying to take responsibility, but you said no. Changing from
double to
LDOUBLE would mean that something that wasn't realistic, was then
realistic (on platforms that support long double).
And it would bring open source R into line with TERR, which gets
the
answer right, on 64bit Windows at least. But I'm not sure I should
be as
confident in TERR as I am in open source R because I can't see its
source code.
There are cases where 64-bit integer accumulators would be
beneficial, and this is one. Unfortunately C11 does not require
them
but some optional moves in that direction are planned.
https://svn.r-project.org/R/trunk/src/main/summary.c
Thanks,
Matthew
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