On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 07:19:36 -0800 Marc Perkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Let me address that point. When I first started we were using an old > Majordomo system. It had no dead address filtering. The list was about > 30,000 names. As soon as list management came under my control I > switched to Mailman 2.0.8 and about 11,000 old email addresses to dead > acounts were automatically removed. Mailman had double opt-in. So at the time you switched you, a full third of your list was invalid, found by confirming your mailing list. Interesting. > About 8 months ago we contracted with an advocacy delivery organization > CTSG that had a package to allow us to deliver low costs faxes, emails, > membership management, and other highly desireable features that allowed > us to have a greater impact on world events. So the newsletter delivery > was transferred to them, and they do not have a double opt-in system. Okay, so you outsourced your responsibly-managed list to an irresponsible delivery service over which you no longer have full control. Sounds like you need to have a talk with your vendor. > Although I do agree that double opt-in is better - and we will be > discussing this and perhaps having to pay for some custom programming, I > don't think that people subscribing other people against their will is a > problem for us. It's apparently a problem for you because it's the simplest reason you're being listed by Razor. But the reason people consider unconfirmed subscriptions to be a problem is not because of the effect is has on the list manager, it's because of the effect on the person subscribed against their will. > The reason I think that is because EFFector is not the > kind of thing people would force on other people. It lacks the > inflamatory nature that moveon.org or truthout.org has. Again, when you're list-bombing someone, you don't care what kind of content you direct at them (though for some reason, gay porn is popular.) The problem is not with EFFector's content, the problem is that you can sign someone up for it (along with all the other unconfirmed mailing lists) and the recipient has to take positive steps to unsubscribe. Sign someone up for 1000 mailing lists and you see that the opt-out model just doesn't scale. > And - it's a > long form with a lot of required fields. The zip code has to actually > match the address and it's a lot of trouble as compated to truthout for > example. Again, this is trivial to bypass with a small amount of perl code, a small list of physical addresses, and a large list of email addresses. > Additionally out newsletter contains contact information - both phone > and email - and we just aren't getting any complaints from people who > are being subscribed against their will. You won't get complaints from people who've fat-fingered their email address or who no longer use the address you're sending to, nor will you get complaints from the spam-trap that that address has turned into. > So - the assumption that it is our fault because of our software is just > plain wrong. No, it is not; see above. But I've explained this before, slowly, loudly, and clearly, others have as well, and you seem to ignore it even though it's possibly the simplest explanation for your current difficulties and one that is totally within your control to eliminate. > Before such an accusation can be made - Razor should be > able to tell me that that is in fact the reason and be able to produce > facts that support that. A listing in Razor states only that some fraction of Razor users reported your mail to it and makes no expressed or implied statements about the quality of your software. It is not an accusation. It's a statement of fact; some number of people have reported your mail to Razor. Why? One cannot judge intent from log entries. You are asking the impossible. Razor does not collect reporters' email addresses, there is no way to contact them, and this bothers you. Unlike SpamCop, you can't use Razor to list-wash, forcing you to reconfirm your mailing list or continue to be listed. Accountability is maintained through the anonymous trust system and you've presented no compelling evidence that this system is broken. We expect that large, unconfirmed lists would be listed in Razor. > The problem is that they can't - and that is where Razor is vulnerable > to abuse. Again, I don't see how Razor is being abused. Until you can come here and say definitively "All our list members voluntarily subscribed and I have subscription confirmations and reconfirmations to back that up" it is likely that your mailing is being delivered to addresses that didn't request it and is being properly tagged as spam. This has become a "show me yours and I'll show you mine" problem and since it's your mailing list that's being blocked, the burden of proof is on you to show you've got a pristine mailing list. You admitted as much yourself that a third of your addresses were invalid when you switched from Majordomo to Mailman. How many more invalid addresses have crept into your list since switching back to an unconfirming list? How many of those are now spamtraps? You won't have to answer that if you fix your confirmation process. The question is, do you want to stop your mail from being listed or do you want to complain about Razor? If the answer is the former, then fix your confirmation scheme, then come back and we'll see if Razor has some flaw once you have a clean list. It's a waste of time looking for problems with Razor if you have any reasonable doubt that your mailing list is clean. Eliminate this one variable and we can move forward. If the answer is the latter, I'm sorry, I can't help you. -- Bob > Bob Apthorpe wrote: > > >Marc has steadfastly dodged[3] any discussion of running EFFector as a > >confirmed list, continues to assert that there's something wrong with > >Razor and that the burden of proof should be on Razor to prove it isn't > >being used maliciously. I find it irritating, immature, and damaging to > >EFF's credibility. ------------------------------------------------------- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf _______________________________________________ Razor-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/razor-users
