This (text by Ken Brown) is very well written. I wish I had written it. Dennis has apologized for his transgression(s) and I object to his removal from the list.
How many of us on this list have benefited from Dennis McGrath's posts? A great many, I'm sure. Quite frankly, the bottom line is, IMHO, Dennis McGrath is knowledgeable and helpful. His lack of presence on the list is a loss to the R:BASE community. Dennis McGrath's contributions to this list far exceed his transgressions. We're all adults. Harsh language is not appropriate on the list but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it in any way offends me. I'm not condoning the use of harsh language and I'm not condoning any conduct that is abusive to any member of the list. Having said that, I find it amusing that there are those who will sit around and pretend to be offended by such language when it is convenient to do so. How far will Dennis and RBTI take this? It's time to bury the hatchet guys. This type of thing just doesn't do anyone any good. Scott ==== Ken Brown wrote: > Re: Dennis > > > At this point, neither your attitude nor your presence is at > > all productive or benevolent on this list, or with the R:BASE > > community at large. > > That's a pretty large and sweeping statement. I also do not think it is > true and resembles the remark of a scolding school teacher. Further, you > are way out of line here, IMO. > > > Why don't you do us all a favor, and unsubscribe to this list, > > and go on your way doing whatever it is that you do best. If > > you are that unhappy with R:BASE or RBTI, there are other > > products and options out there, and it would be in the best > > interest of all for your to pursue these. > > And now you are *WAY* out of line. If you are speaking personally, that is > one thing. If you are using your position with RBTI (evidently true by your > sig line), then you are acting in a manner I hope you reconsider. If your > statement above in any way reflects you in your position as Director, > Custopmer Support then I am very concerned. I mention it only so that it is > brought to the attention of yourself, your superiors and the list in > general. If it is a potential problem (which it may not be), it should be > addressed and remedied. Perhaps it is merely personal frustration and > opinion? If so, a simple apology will suffice and we all move on. > > I also disagree with you. I wish to see Dennis remain and provide input. > His experience with R:Base goes back many, many years. And your remark "do > us all a favor" is pretty personal in nature, contrary to the specific goals > of this list. In other words, a personal remark is a personal remark and > uncalled for - a matter of quantity, not quality. Dennis quoted a remark, > you are on an affirmative attack. In esence, you have made a "problem" > worse. > > > All we at RBTI ask is that you leave your personal personal > > conflicts out of the public view, and leave Razzak and us > > alone to continue doing what we do best. > > Are you speaking for RBTI as a whole? Is it your position to do so? Is > RBTI this list? Is it the final arbiter of all who may read this list? Are > the goals of this list directly tied to RBTI? Am I wrong in thinking the > goal of this list was to act as an information conduit for R:Base users? > > If it is a prerequistie to read this list that I be a rah-rah supporter of > RBTI and act in a personal manner, then I shall unsubscribe and go to a more > professional list. R:Street may be an option for me (Scott produced a FINE > newsletter in the past) and I would hope all other professionals interested > in R:Base and our industry as whole would also read R:Street. > > I use R:Base, I think it is a FINE tool for getting the job done. Ther > personal issues of RBTI, etc. are of no interest to me. I have been reading > (and participating in) newsgroups and lists for well over a decade.. almost > two decades actually. I will not associate myself with an unprofessional > group. > > Dennis had an email slip and It was an error; he apologized. So what? Drop > it. Your insistance on bringing it up (and actually quoting it again so it > is broadcast all over.. AGAIN) is counterproductive and does nothing to > advance this list, or R:Base. IOW, pot, kettle, black. > > In addition, his remark was in quotes - it is unclear if he said it or is > quoting someone else. And who cares? I am sure I am considered many things > by many people, but I could care less - my work speaks for itself and I am > an adult, as well as a professional. What people may, or may not, think of > Razzak personally is not an issue, nor is it a prerequisite to using R:Base > or reading the list. Or is it?? > > > And in case you > > are unaware of exactly what it is that sets us apart, ask some > > of the RESPECTABLE and PROFESSIONAL developers > > how we work to provide them everything possible to meet > > their needs. There are MANY members of this list who can > > attest to this, and who can appreciate how we try to do > > business. > > That wasn't an issue in any email I have seen - why bring it up? Are you > being a wee bit defensive here?? Are you now dragging more of your personal > issues with Dennis into the list?? I have been reading the list for years > (way back to Harry Bass days) and it has never been an issue to my > knowledge. In fact, I do believe Dennis contributed greatly to the overall > R:Base tools development and as such should be held in high regard, right > below such names as Wayne and Anne. Without the tools to make using R:Base > a little easier, R:Base could quite easily fall to the side as being "too > difficult" by some folks. Dennis has increased R:Base use, not decreased > it. > > FYI and for a little bit of history, I started the first FTP site for R:Base > materials on the "Internet" and spread the word on my own in newsgroups on > Usenet. This was back when Microrim only had a BBS and there was no way for > people to access that BBS without a long distance phone call. I > re-published the public access R:Base info from the BBS (with approval) and > made it more accessible to any user any where that could get to an FTP site. > > I mention the above to let you know I am a long-standing supporter of > R:Base. I consider the product individually from the company itself. > Always have, always will. And *even if* Wayne was a royal jerk and an ass > (which he isn't, IMO), it wouldn't matter!! R:Base is a fine product. > > I am pleased you are proud of what you do and have great faith in your > efforts - it is critical to success. However, taking things to a religious > fervor is unnecessary and counterproductive in a "PROFESSIONAL" and > "RESPECTABLE" environment. Good work speaks for itself and cheerleading is > fluff that is not required and actually is very distracting.. and > unprofessional. Examples? Choose any large corporation - they get a slogan > and stick to it, not contstantly go "rah, rah rah; we're the best". > > Americans are, in general, quite skeptical of anything that has too many > adjectives describing the product. And for good reason, I might add. > > > Michael Willochell > > Director, Customer Support > > R:BASE Technologies, Inc. > > I also note you are with RBTI itself, not just a reader of the list. Do you > think this may have influenced your viewpoint on the issue and allowed your > personal feelings to get involved? > > In addition, as RBTI Customer Support Director I am somewhat shocked with > your apparent attitude. Dealing with the public (or even co-workers!) in a > software product environment is quite an undertaking and requires patience > and the ability to overlook personality issues. I do customer support for > my work and a client I have will get frustrated and curse - at the software > and in my general direction. I consider him to be an "asshole" and will say > so privately to others as I vent my own frustration; but as a professional, > I do my job and don't let his personality effect my own performance. > > Professionals get the job done - regardless of personal feelings and without > resorting to personal attacks. Dennis made a remark (and may have only been > repeating someone else), not an attack. You are going a step further and > making a personal attack on Dennis. Think about it. > > And think about this: Do you really think everyone has the same opinions > about everyone else? About Razzak? Does it matter?? And if it DOES > matter, is that being very professional?? > > Your response in your list post indicates you are letting your personal > feelings drift into the list and that is counterproductive, the same thing > you are accusing another of doing. > > I would hope you will reconsider your position, as a professional, and issue > Dennis an apology (as Dennis has done) so we can drop all of this and move > on as professionals. > > Regards, > > K R Brown Scott ==== Scott J. 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