Patrick and Will, Many thanks for your detailed experiences with your array Hilltrek garments, both of your insights are helpful to my decision.
I am always concerned when looking at "raingear" that many technical specifications are purposely overlooked or the item is demonstrated in high altitude or arid settings which use the physics of the environment to produce claimed performance. In my use around here (38" annual rainfall, 27" snow) I need breathability or could just cut arm and head holes in the bottom of a can liner for much less and pretty high resistance/proofness to water. I can manage some moisture inside by choosing base and insulation garments appropriately. Synthetic advancements of other raingear at lower prices have all performed somewhat as unfinished research projects at high costs, those being crunchy loudness and service life. I believe the previous is telling of the latter, any material has a flex to failure specification and the shell materials dependent on coatings or laminates with a bonded 3D inner surface mesh liner beg for both increases stiffness of hand and an earlier arrival of the end of functional performance. Even trying not to pack or manipulate my last shell, the stiffness of its build focussed flex and movement in wear at the from of the shoulders, right where you need the shell to hold out water the most. Will, I am likely to follow your path to the DV shouldered and hood, SV balance construction because while I seldom have to cope with the lowest temps, I can sweat thinking about the next hill and have a premium on breathability. Side note about pit zips and back flaps on lesser breathing shells: here in the non-arid, closer to sea level lands they lower the temp differential across the membranes/laminates and promote condensation on the inside face of the materials beyond what the lining mesh can handle. A bad thing if I am using the shell for wind blocking instead of a water barrier. nothing worse to end up wet on a dry dark morning. Patrick, I've been quietly following your chronology of experience with Hilltrek products and Ventile itself. Thanks for being a font of information and freely sharing. Once again the usefulness of this list over coffee each morning is more productive than my wife ever thought! Andy Cheatham Pittsburgh On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 4:35:53 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote: > > Andy Cheatham asked in my Coffeeneuring #2 thread how I like my Foinaven > cotton analogy ventile smock by Hilltrek. I’m starting a separate thread so > folks can follow or not as they desire. > > Simple answer, absolutely. > > Fuller answer is more complex as it involves the question of what factors > will make single, double or cotton analogy ventile options work or not for > any given person. Here are some of the factors I know make a difference. > > Humidity and temperature and precipitation. The higher the humidity, the > more challenging it is to get rid of moisture inside any garment. The > higher the temperature, the sooner the body will sweat. In high humidity > and/or temperature increased ventilation levels help significantly. Even a > single layer of ventile blocks all wind, so ventilation means loosening the > hood/neck/waist. Depending on the amount/type of precipitation coming down, > finding a balance is key. All of this is true for any rain garment, and is > why less breathable jackets include pit zips. In my experience, these are > not needed with ventile as all three types are far more breathable than > synthetics. The general range I use my ventile cotton analogy is as warm as > 60’s, raining, close to 100% humidity (wearing jacket only), down to -20˚F > and colder, humidity ranging for near 100% to very low, wearing whatever > layers are required under. For moisture management, the most challenging > conditions are cold and wet and high humidity, with temperatures ranging > from 50˚F down to 25˚F. For me, this is where cotton analogy ventile shines > easily above all other comers, because it actively pushes moisture out. > Fishnet underlayer is key to moisture management, allowing even a small > amount of air flow to remove moisture, but also actively removing sweat > (vapor and liquid) as I ride and when I stop. I experience double ventile > as staying cold and clammy much longer than cotton analogy. > > Exertion level. When I bike harder, I sweat more. I climb a lot > (essentially half of my riding as there are no flats around here), and > there is no getting around warming up and sweating on these climbs. I > generally stay aerobic, so could hold a relaxed conversation while riding. > If I rode (as I used to) anaerobic much/all of the time, I would sweat a > lot more and the amount of moisture needing to get out would be > significantly higher. It took time to build my aerobic base, but now I ride > faster aerobically than I used to anaerobically, and for far longer, > requiring less water along the way. I also nearly always breathe only > through my nose and this helps regulate temperature in ways I don’t fully > understand. > > Ventilation level. How open is the hood, neck and waste? Closed enough to > keep out precipitation, open enough to maximize air flow and direct removal > of perspiration. > > Breathability of the fabric. Single ventile is most breathable. I > experience cotton analogy as next most breathable (but more insulating, > which may be what Will experiences and mentions in the other thread), > followed by double ventile, which is still far more breathable than > synthetics. > > Insulation of the fabric. Cotton analogy is the insulating equivalent of a > thin wool shirt under a single ventile jacket. I don’t experience much > difference between it and double layer ventile. Because of this, the cotton > analogy is bulkier, but I also don’t need to carry an extra layer of > insulation. I just plan accordingly. Double ventile is slightly less bulky > and single ventile is smaller yet. All are bulkier than many synthetics. > All are quieter than synthetics. All breathe more than any waterproof > synthetics. > > Waterproofness of the fabric. Single layer ventile: 10 minutes of good > rain will start to soak through. Double layer and cotton analogy are nearly > the same, but I experience the cotton analogy as superior at actively > pushing moisture out so I stay dryer, which matches the descriptions from > Hilltrek and many of their customers. > > Longevity of the garment: I’d have to look, but I’ve had my first cotton > analogy jacket for over four years of hard, dirty use and I rarely wash it > (they suggest washing far more than I do) and it works just as well now as > they day I got it except the exterior spray on coating is long gone, but > the jacket works just as well. The outer layer just gets stiff when wet > from holding moisture, which is how ventile is supposed to work. > > Which is right for you? No idea. But hopefully these factors combined with > my and others experience will help narrow things down as to what to try > first. > > With abandon, > Patrick > > www.CredoFamily.org > www.MindYourHeadCoop.org > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
