Yeah, I realize what I want might not be actually possible. And I hear you, Ted, on weights of frames and stuff. I’m willing to go back to the drawing board, though. The lovely stable ride of the Clem may come at a cost that I can’t have in a whippier frame.
Will is working from home and thus answering emails, so I’m trying to get an estimate of when the Cheviots will arrive (spoiler alert: I don’t think it’s this summer any longer) and if ordering a custom would actually be FASTER. I’ll keep you posted. On the other hand, I was remembering my little boy’s 20 inch Giant. Baby Bear was in 1st grade and I had decided that it was indeed possible to bike commute to and from our new school, even with the mountain in between. He was so proud to have a new, bright yellow and blue bike WITH GEARS, but when he tried to ride it up the hill he just struggled. He was so discouraged every day because my older son and I could do it much more easily. Baby Bear would always have to jump off and walk. One day I took it in for service and the mechanic, familiar with our hill because the roadies ride it, said, “Ma’am, if you have a 6 year old who will ride this bike up that hill and not complain or refuse, you have a very good kid. This bike weighs way too much.” I was stung. I felt terrible. I sold that lemon on Craigslist (sorry to whoever bought it!) and bought him an Islabike. He was a new kid. He danced up that hill from that day forth and never complained again. We called his bike The Red Rocket and Baby Bear was tickled. I know the weight percentage differs, but the memory came to mind... Leah Sent from my iPad > On Mar 30, 2020, at 11:06 AM, ted <ted.ke...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Going from a 35 lb bike to one in the low 20s is a reduction of what say 13 > lbs, or over 33%. Start from the lighter bike and the increase is over 50%. > That is a fairly extreme comparison. > > The RBW page states a 55 Roadeo frame is just under 4 lbs. In the pre MIT > days think I heard an Atlantis frame was ~ 1 lb heavier than an AHH. Suppose > an AHH was another lb heavier than a Roadeo. That would suggest about a 2lb > delta between a Roadeo and an Atlantis. I think it's reasonable to guess a > custom light gauge Cheviot wouldn't be more than 2.5 lbs lighter than a > production frame and fork. With a $2600 upcharge that's over $100 per lb. Is > that good value? Is 2.5 lbs a big deal? Keep in mind how much fenders, racks, > baskets, bags, kickstands etc. can weigh. YMMV > > It's a fact of physics that a lighter mass takes less work to push up a hill. > But physics doesn't tell us how noticeable a particular difference will be. > Suppose our "light" rider weighs 100 lbs ready to ride, and the bike weighs > 25 lbs. Shaving 2.5 lbs off the frame and fork reduces the work of climbing a > steep hill ~2%. > How noticeable is 2%? YMMV > > I'm not a mountain biker, in the 80s i was riding road bikes, so I'm not > familiar with the bikes Mark references. However I can definitely tell the > difference between my Bombadil and my AHH, I just don't believe that's down > to the difference in frame weights. If Leah wants something that rides and > handles just like her Clem L but is substantially easier to ride up a hill, > I'm not at all certain than anything short of a motor is going to do that. > But I'd suggest starting by getting rid of anything not needed to make the > bike rideable (e.g. fenders, racks, baskets, bags) and then move to lighter > tires, wheels and components, I'd suggest chasing extra light gauge frame > tubes last. Oh, and make sure that lowest gear is sub 20". > > Of course if she just has to have that lovely red Joe Bell paint job, well > hey the heart wants what it wants eh? > > > > > > >> On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 1:05:09 PM UTC-7, Mark Roland wrote: >> I would be the last one to tell people to get worked up about frame weight. >> But it is a fact of physics that lighter weight riders experience the ride >> qualities of many bikes differently -- partly as a frame to body proportion, >> partly as a power output/wattage proportion. Certainly high quality tires >> like Rene Herse will have an affect--Leah could put a set of Switchbacks on >> her Clem L for that matter. (Though he may have changed his opinion, Grant >> in the past has disputed the idea of supple tires being any better. On that >> I definitely disagree.) My son could ride the 35 pound vintage GT I built up >> for him, but when I got him a WOOM in the low 20s, it was a totally new >> experience, one that he immediately recognized. Not saying always "better" >> (though in Mack's case it was) but certainly "different." And that I believe >> is Leah's objective--a ride distinct from the Clem L ride qualities, such as >> they are. >> >> I personally can be happy on almost anything these days--I'm loving, loving >> my overbuilt virtually stock 1980s mountain bikes right now for any rides, >> while I procrastinate on a few builds, including my Clem L. But I can very >> much tell the difference between these and my Ron Kitching or my Panasonic >> DX 5000 (and I have the advantage of being able to throw more power at the >> heavier bikes) If Leah is looking for something that "feels" substantially >> different than her Clem L, and the Betty didn't provide it, I'm not at all >> certain a Cheviot will, even with fancy tires and red paint. >> >>> On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 2:34:49 PM UTC-4, ted wrote: >>> Leah, >>> >>> I encourage you to try and avoid getting wrapped up in frame weight worries. >>> Though I'm not immune to bouts of weight weeniesm (I've got a sub 19lb >>> black mountain and my AHH is under 21lbs) I think bike weight is at best a >>> third order effect, and frame weight is only part of total bike weight. >>> Choice of components tires etc, let alone bags with stuff in them can add >>> up to more than the difference in frame weights. Bike weight is most >>> noticeable when maneuvering the bike before or after a ride. I.e. up or >>> down porch steps, on or off a car rack, etc. If your not bothered doing >>> those sorts of things try to forget about it. If you are bothered by it, >>> buy light parts, don't opt for the larger frame if you've got two options, >>> and think about tubing last. >>> I also don't subscribe to the "too stiff" frame school. If you like feeling >>> your fame flex when you stand on the pedals fine, but I don't care for it >>> myself. Decades ago I was racing on a Nobilette sport touringish frame and >>> between one weekend and the next I changed to a Gios Torino (italian race >>> frame). The Gios was noticeably stiffer and quicker handling. I liked the >>> ride better for racing but it did not make me slower or faster (note, that >>> frame is in my garage rafters now). >>> I think you would be better served by focusing on the ride and handling you >>> want and let GP and co worry about the tubing. I'm convinced that the ride >>> and handling of a bike are dominated by the geometry and the tires. Unless >>> the tubing is really light and you like bottom bracket flex under power, >>> the effect of tubing is way down in the weeds. I don't believe substituting >>> roadeo tubing into the cheviot geometry would result in a mixte that rides >>> like a roadeo. >>> When Riv "steered you toward production" did you tell them you wanted a >>> mixte that rides like a Roadeo? Is that what you want? If it is I expect GP >>> would say that is a custom. >>> If you want a bike that rides like a Betty, Cheviot or Clem L but faster, >>> buy a production bike and put easier rolling more fragile tires, lower >>> narrower bars, and light components on it. >>> Custom frame (4K) minus cheviot frame (1.4K) leaves $2600, you can buy a >>> fair number of fancy parts upgrades with that much money. >>> Unless you have $$ to burn, I think a custom Riv only makes sense if the >>> geometry you want isn't available any other way. >>> >>> >>>> On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 9:51:12 AM UTC-7, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! >>>> wrote: >>>> Ugh, I know that Melanie and Mark make excellent points. Points I weighed >>>> when I was trying to decide custom mixte vs. production mixte. I knew that >>>> Riv would steer me toward production, and they did, and it seemed like I >>>> could get enough of what I wanted with a Cheviot. But the more I think >>>> about it, I wonder if I should just pay the extra money and get in >>>> Nobilette’s line. >>>> >>>> I also wonder if I’m making up problems I don’t have. I *can* pedal a >>>> Rivendell just fine; it’s just that a custom could be mo’ better. Is that >>>> worth the extra money? I do have kids to put through college, you know... >>>> >>>> How light is Roadeo tubing? If, and it’s a big if, I were to make a mixte >>>> out of it, I wonder if it would be strong enough... >>>> >>>> But the other really big factor here is if the Cheviots are being >>>> extensively delayed. I was hoping to have one in April (that was the >>>> rumored drop date) but then Rivendell said June or July. Then they said >>>> Cheviots would ship in July so not until mid to late August. And that was >>>> BEFORE the COVID crisis. >>>> >>>> If the delay is worse than August, maybe I should try to get a flyweight >>>> mixte via the custom route. Hopefully THAT line is not so long... >>>> Leah >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 7:33 AM, Melanie <myo...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Mark Roland. You need a Roadeo-weight mixte. The weight of >>>>> my Roadeo is perfect for my under-125 lbs. body. >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>>>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/E1ezDPhtnSk/unsubscribe. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>>>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/03fa168c-328b-4cb0-97fc-913963abd330%40googlegroups.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google > Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/E1ezDPhtnSk/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/6b753d6f-edeb-4b38-80de-3088a78605a4%40googlegroups.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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