Wheel weight vis a vis moment of inertia matters almost nothing to the 
modern bicycle. Based upon normal human power outputs (100 W), cruising 
speeds (6 m/s), and wheel sizes (.35 m) , a bicycle's wheel based upon 
moment of interia alone comes up to speed in fractions of a second. The 
difference of a 2 kg wheelset and 1 kg wheelset is a factor of 2 difference 
in this time, but it happens so quickly this is not the phenomenon 
determining the overall acceleration of the bike  (.025 s for a 1 kg  vs 
.05 s for 2 kg)*. This is opposed to the many seconds it will take the full 
bike plus rider to get up to that speed (84.6 s with a 80 kg rider and 10 
kg bike). Rolling resistance will play a much larger roll than the moment 
of inertia of wheel in determining acceleration (which I have left out).

Go ahead and put you bike in the bike stand. A quarter turn with moderate 
arm strength will get the will up to speed in a fraction of a second. And 
the mechanics of your arms is producing a lot less power than you can 
sitting on a bike. Doubling you wheel weight will double this time, but 
because it is so small to begin with the overall effect on the bicycle is 
negligible. 

If it were true that it effected the bike, than as Laing pointed out, bike 
racers would want the smallest possible wheels (as the radius of wheel 
effects the moment of inertia much more than the weight). The TdF riders 
would be looking to get the smallest wheels possible, which they are not. 

Much like how angular momentum is not really effecting the handling of the 
bike, it is also not effecting the acceleration of the bike. This is 
because the weight of the wheelset is so small compared to the weight of 
the bike plus rider. 

Ben

*If this seems too fast, it's because it is. But I didn't want to solve the 
PDE for non-constant power output, and the human body definitely can *not* 
produce peak power from a dead start. But even with power curve it will 
happen very fast. If I recall my math correctly a linear curve will double 
the time, putting it the range of a tenth of a second which is starting to 
seem reasonable. 
On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 3:08:20 PM UTC-7 Adam wrote:

> Thanks for all the thoughts.
>
> Someone asked if I'd weighed the wheels, unfortunately I don't have a 
> scale.
>
> Maybe I'll swap the tires sometime. Not really my end goal, but would help 
> me understand what's going on.
>
> Just curious if anyone on here has ever swapped from a heavier wheelset to 
> a lighter one on one of the burlier Rivs?
>
> There's a somewhat absurd aspect to my curiosity, since I bought the 
> Hillborne to have something livelier than the Marrakesh, but now the ride 
> of the Hillborne makes it hard to use the Marrakesh. I intended to keep the 
> Hillborne on road and use the Marrakesh for gravel and light singletrack 
> but have been taking the Hillborne for those rides too. The only real 
> "problem" is that I've banged my fenders up a bit and would rather be using 
> the bosco bar and knobby tires of the Marrakesh off-road.
>
> Anyway, regardless of practical stuff, it's good to understand the effects 
> of different wheels.
>
> On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 4:54:12 PM UTC-4 David Person wrote:
>
>> Adam, good choice on the Barlow Pass tires.  I ran a set on my Hillborne 
>> for 5 years till the rear wore out this past fall.  I switched to 
>> Snoqualmie Pass tires for a bit more cush.  I have them mounted on Dyad 
>> rims and they measure 41mm wide, where the BPs measured 35mm, if I 
>> remember.  Tried a pair of Oracle Ridge but they were a bit on the large 
>> size.  They would fit but hard to get the rear wheel on and off.  In my 
>> opinion, the Snoqualmies ride/handle/respond very much like the Barlows 
>> with a bit more tire volume to soak up the bumps.  Not an answer to the 
>> exact question you were asking, but wanted to congratulate you on your tire 
>> choice and give my two cents.
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 1:17:03 PM UTC-7 philipr...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> So we're back to #1 - light tires & tubes. Followed by #2 - light rims & 
>>> spokes.
>>>
>>> No one else want to chime in on friction? How much slip does say, a 
>>> semi-knobby tire like the Cazadero allow compared to the RH & is that 
>>> noticeable when accelerating?
>>>
>>> Inboard brakes are a thing of beauty & danger, I believe the Lotus 72 F1 
>>> car may have been the 1st to implement. The problem has been the load on 
>>> the half shaft which, according to the inquest, the associated failure of 
>>> that was the cause of Rindt's fatal crash in that car.
>>> On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 3:07:59 PM UTC-5 ascpgh wrote:
>>>
>>>> The comparison to motor vehicle unsprung weight may parallel 
>>>> bicyclists' focus on wheel and tire weight but available horsepower of 
>>>> even 
>>>> weak engines makes all but the most competitive motor vehicles seem sloppy 
>>>> with their unsprung, wheel and tire weights comparatively. 
>>>>
>>>> You on your bike won't make enough horsepower to overcome much weight 
>>>> increases by anything distant from the hub. The greatest improvement to 
>>>> angular acceleration (increasing a wheels rotating speed) will be at the 
>>>> greatest distance from the axle; tires/tubes. Smaller changes in weight 
>>>> net 
>>>> larger feelings of better response at that distant component, tubes come 
>>>> in 
>>>> second, rim choice third. Spokes are next and the hubs may be eclipsed by 
>>>> having lighter pedals. Light wheels, on the unsprung weight topic, do seem 
>>>> to ride nicer because they don't require such impact to move up and down 
>>>> over surface irregularities. Heavy rimmed wheels cancel benefits of light 
>>>> tires in my very subjective experiments. 
>>>>
>>>> Total weight of a bike can affect what you've felt as a difference 
>>>> between your two bikes but the fastest way to improve the ride of a bike 
>>>> to 
>>>> me is a wheel made of a light rim/spokes and a light tire. I ruined the 
>>>> young woman we mentor by loaning her my Rambouillet's PJW-made wheels for 
>>>> a 
>>>> long ride. Velocity Synergy rims with 36°, straight gauge spokes, XT hubs 
>>>> and RH Stampede Pass ELs and light tubes. She is having me work up a price 
>>>> for a set of responsibly lighter wheels with a dyno hub front as a result. 
>>>>
>>>> Some strategies in automotive design to reduce unsprung weight are 
>>>> elegant. The Alfa Romeo Giulia GT 1600 Junior De Dion rear suspension 
>>>> removed the brake disc from the unsprung weight by putting them on the 
>>>> other ends of the half shafts, on either side of the differential. that 
>>>> carried on in their designs for decades. 
>>>>
>>>> Andy Cheatham
>>>> Pittsburgh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 11:41:15 AM UTC-4 philipr...@gmail.com 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Car & motorcycle racers talk about unsprung weight, in other words the 
>>>>> weight of the components that the suspension system does not act upon 
>>>>> (rims, tires, brake calipers etc.). Keeping this number to a minimum is 
>>>>> critical to building a competitive vehicle as this directly effects 
>>>>> acceleration & braking performance and cannot be manipulated by 
>>>>> suspension 
>>>>> design. This is consistent with Newton's 2nd law which states that 
>>>>> Acceleration = Mass/Force.
>>>>>
>>>>> To my mind, in hard tail/front bicycle design the tire & tube are that 
>>>>> suspended component, everything after them is "sprung" by the sidewall 
>>>>> stiffness & tire pressure (in racing design, tires parameters take 
>>>>> priority 
>>>>> over the rest of the unsprung parts too) so as Patrick Moore says, they 
>>>>> are 
>>>>> the most critical part of the acceleration equation (not the only by any 
>>>>> means, but the foundation).
>>>>>
>>>>> Ignoring the friction component for now and looking at the numbers, a 
>>>>> Rene Hearse tire set is 1/2 pound lighter than the Cazaderos (125 grams 
>>>>> per 
>>>>> wheel). This doesn't sound like too significant difference on a 30lb bike 
>>>>> EXCEPT as above, this is unsprung weight which most significantly affects 
>>>>> acceleration. Put friction back into the equation (the coefficient of 
>>>>> that 
>>>>> between the tire and the pavement is your grip) and consider a tires 
>>>>> viscosity (how sticky it is), deformability (how much the sidewalls 
>>>>> absorb 
>>>>> your energy input versus transmitting it directly to the road) and 
>>>>> hysteresis (the speed at which the deformation of the tire returns to 
>>>>> it's 
>>>>> normal shape after deformation) and I think you have most of your answer 
>>>>> in 
>>>>> tire science? The Rene Hearse is lighter, most likely less susceptible to 
>>>>> deformation, has faster hysteresis and a tread pattern that offers more 
>>>>> grip.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a note, another 1/3rd or so of a pound can also be saved in 
>>>>> switching to lightweight tubes (which are also susceptible to all the 
>>>>> same 
>>>>> parameters as the tires).
>>>>>
>>>>> Now this sounds like a lot of semantics, bicycles are light and the 
>>>>> forces involved (our legs) are weak compared to ICE technology. But it's 
>>>>> exactly because those forces are so weak that small gains in tire 
>>>>> performance become significant. Your tires are actually fairly closely 
>>>>> matched, quality brands, if you move into the word of low end Kendas or 
>>>>> similar, the savings can be in the 2 to 4lb range for a set!
>>>>>
>>>>> Bear in mind, I'm merely a dilettante at this, the physicists amongst 
>>>>> you may well be correcting me on the above. But the theory can be tested 
>>>>> at 
>>>>> least in perception by swapping the tires & tubes between your bikes?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 9:08:14 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, the Cazaderos have small knobs; this will certainly affect 
>>>>>> rolling resistance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 8:06 AM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've used all sorts of wheel sizes and weights, from just shy of 20" 
>>>>>>> to just over 30", and tires ranging from 175 grams to over 900 grams. 
>>>>>>> IME, 
>>>>>>> wheel diameter and tire weight affect the ride far less than tire 
>>>>>>> quality 
>>>>>>> (supple, light casing) except on hills, when at least in the extreme -- 
>>>>>>> in 
>>>>>>> my case, 800 gram rim and 800 gram tire + 200-250 gram tube; the rim 
>>>>>>> and 
>>>>>>> the tire were the "lite" models! -- you certainly can feel a difference 
>>>>>>> climbing over a sub 175 gram tire, 360 gram rim, and 70 gram tube, 
>>>>>>> especially if the overall wheel diameters differ by about 5".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of my "plane-y-est" bikes is that Matthews dirt road bike with 
>>>>>>> 700C X 60 tires. Granted that the wheels are quite light for their size 
>>>>>>> (29 
>>>>>>> 1/2" tall, 60 mm wide, Velocity Blunt SSs, Big Ones), but the bike just 
>>>>>>> feels easier to pedal in a given gear in given conditions; at least as 
>>>>>>> good 
>>>>>>> as my bikes with much lighter wheels. On the flats. Climbing, the 
>>>>>>> light-wheel bikes feel faster.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All that said, good quality light wheels and especially top quality 
>>>>>>> tires really do affect the pleasure of the ride.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 6:58 AM Adam <adam....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all, hoping to get some thoughts on the role of wheels in 
>>>>>>>> acceleration and climbing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I recently picked up my first Riv (Hillborne) and am running Dyads 
>>>>>>>> and Barlow Pass tires. Among other things, I'm amazed at the 
>>>>>>>> difference in 
>>>>>>>> acceleration, speed, and particularly climbing vs my other bike, which 
>>>>>>>> is a 
>>>>>>>> pretty heavy Salsa Marrakesh with stock wheels (WTB sx19 and Shimano 
>>>>>>>> m475 
>>>>>>>> hubs) and Cazaderos.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not necessarily jumping to replace the Marrakesh's wheels ATM, 
>>>>>>>> but I am curious whether anyone has thoughts on whether or not that's 
>>>>>>>> likely the difference I'm feeling in acceleration and speed?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's definitely a substantial weight difference between the two 
>>>>>>>> builds, but I've loaded up the Sam a few times and it's still way 
>>>>>>>> quicker. 
>>>>>>>> I'd just swap the wheels, but the Marrakesh's are disc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thoughts?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
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>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/215efd40-085a-4216-83b3-f8ae46aea0e7n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Patrick Moore
>>>>>>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Patrick Moore
>>>>>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

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