Threadless stem systems are much stiffer than the traditional threaded systems. It's the first thing I notice when switching bikes other than tires. Though I will note that I seem to be more sensitive to bike handling than others --- people claim that they can't tell the difference between frames with 5mm differences in BB drop and I can tell even before I measure the bikes.
On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 10:07:09 AM UTC-8 MoVelo wrote: > I find this topic very interesting. Hope you don't mind if I indulge > myself here a bit and solicit an opinion or three. > > While I love both the Legolas and Rambouillet, I purchased the Ram first > as a used frame, due to the high praise it received on this and other > forums. I've had it for over 10 years now and have not grown tired of it's > utility, comfort and looks. It's a bike I can ride all day and not feel > abused in any way and is well suited to the type of rides I most often do. > It's not the lightest steel bike I own but it is probably my favorite and > the one I most often ride. Even tho the weight of the frame is not much of > a consideration for this audience; it seems to me that it could be one > metric of an informed opinion, and while it won't divulge the tubing spec, > it might give a slight clue. Remarkably I neglected to weigh the frame when > I acquired it and simply put it together and rode it. I guess I was > probably excited to have it in hand. Anyway, it needs to undergo a cleaning > and inspection this winter and so I'll put it on the scale and have that > information for consideration. > > When I saw a very lightly used Legolas come up for sale, given it's > unicorn like aura, I jumped on it. Figuring I'd give it a try and probably > get my money back if it failed me. It is a different bike than the Ram in > many respects, geometry being one. I suspect the tubing spec'd is quite > different too, but I have no knowledge of how or in what way. When it came > to me it had a non-threaded steer tube. This prevented me from being able > to easily raise the bars to a desirable height. I know there are extenders > I could have used, but being the vain cyclist I am I resisted. So for > several years I rode the bike and always felt it was 'stiff'. Comparing it > to the other steel bikes I owned, rode and enjoyed, I was perplexed at why > it felt so stiff and unyielding. I just assumed it being mainly intended as > a cross racer, it gave up the some on the comfort side of the equation. > This year I finally decided to have the steerer threaded, and found myself > amazed at what that little difference made in the bikes riding > characteristics. Legolas is a happy, repsonsive elf now, and less of the > stern unyielding elf it was before. I have to ask myself, and you if you've > managed to hang on this long, how can something as simple as this change > make such a difference? > > The bars on the Legolas are a bit higher now and level with the seat as > with all the rest of my bikes. The threaded steerer obviously allows the > bars to easily be raised to a better position with (in my opinion) a much > better looking stem. > > Has the flexibility of the gooseneck stem really changed the feel of the > bike? Does the bike actually ride better or is my mind convincing me that > because it looks better it rides better? > > J 'inquisitive on a cold December morning' P > > > On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 3:14:48 AM UTC-6 Garth wrote: > >> While I don't own any Riv road bike I was reading the commentary about >> the Legolas having notably less drop than the usual road Riv. The Legolas >> is/was sorta presented as a 'Cross frame, yes ? Cross frame implying a >> higher BB, neutral handling and cantilever brakes. My custom Franklin is >> rather like that, about 70mm drop, cantilever brakes, 45.5cm stays, neutral >> handling. My only other currently ridden bike is a Bombadil with it's 80mm >> drop and noticeable wheel flop, and that to me, still feels odd especially >> when I first get on it after riding the Franklin. Cornering high speed on >> twisty turns is also weird, where the Franklin is absolutely thrilling in >> it's ability to corner high speed and respond with ease to the most subtle >> of bodily inputs, be it from upper or lower body. What could be considered >> "twitch-a-bility" I liken as magi-bility in that it responds with precision >> to every nuance of the body instantly with ease. Like riding a horse that >> loves to run Wild and Free. There's no "auto-correct" resistance like I >> feel on my Bombadil, which I get the intention in theory, but in >> practicality I'd rather have thrilling/responsive than safe/resistant every >> day of the week. With "safe" comes restrictions and limitations, in the >> "human non-sensical way". The thing is such doesn't "make" one safe anymore >> than "unsafe" without them. >> >> I have an affinity with racing frames, European ones mostly, save a Fuji >> which was my first. So that surely colors the angle of this story.They all >> have that thrilling quality of ease of line changing and maneuverability >> which is required when riding in a ever moving group of riders and road >> furniture. >> >> The Legolas frame as it is doesn't fit me though as it's much too short >> in reach, as are most Rivs. So while I have no direct experience with it, I >> love a good a story .... and who doesn't ? ! >> >> On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 12:31:14 AM UTC-5 Masa wrote: >> >>> Jim, thank you for your message! It was really interesting to read how >>> you compare the "shorter" wheelbase Rivs and the current longer ones. >>> It's fun to compare and study (even being obsessed sometimes) about the >>> geometries but on the other hand as you quoted there are many factors >>> beyond numbers. That's why Grant (and other bike makers) tries to update >>> and recreate the bikes and we can enjoy them. >>> >>> I'm looking forward to hear from you how you update your Atlantis! >>> >>> Masa >>> >>> 2022年12月12日月曜日 4:34:12 UTC+9 J J: >>> >>>> Hi Masa, thanks for your kind message. >>>> >>>> You asked "Can I ask you how you describe the feel of the shorter >>>> wheelbase Rivs please?" — in brief, I find the ride of the shorter >>>> wheelbase Rivs wonderful! >>>> >>>> Perhaps all of the characteristic differences between short and long >>>> wheelbase Rivs are relative, and it's hard for me to speak about the >>>> longer >>>> wheelbase models comparatively because I have only ridden one of them, and >>>> for a short time. The Hunqapillar has always felt very stable and >>>> comfortable to me regardless of the riding surface (pavement or off road), >>>> surface conditions, or loads that I carry (whether heavily loaded in the >>>> front, the back, both front and back, or unloaded). It tracks straight and >>>> inspires confidence. >>>> >>>> But I think it's important to note that the Hunq's "short" wheelbase is >>>> short only relative to the newer super long wheelbase Rivs, not short to >>>> most other bicycles. Grant was singing the virtues of Riv's long chain >>>> stays many, many years before Riv started producing super long models. >>>> >>>> Folks who have more recent very long Rivs rave about how stable and >>>> comfortable they are. I'd love to ride one for longer because it sounds >>>> fantastic. I'm sure your Platypus rides beautifully! >>>> >>>> While the old Toyo Atlantis has a shorter wheelbase and chain stay than >>>> the Hunq, its ride is similarly stable and confidence inspiring. It does >>>> feel a touch more nimble, more easily maneuverable. (And I love the >>>> classic >>>> proportions and aesthetics of the Atlantis.) The front end is floppier >>>> than >>>> the Hunq's and I'm not sure if that is because of the geometry differences >>>> or because it has a narrow drop bar. I have noticeably more toe clip >>>> overlap on the Atlantis than the Hunq. I will be getting an upright, swept >>>> back bar for the Atlantis (I have Bosco on the Hunq) because riding drop >>>> bars very much hurts my shoulders and wrists. I'm curious how upright bars >>>> will change how the Atlantis feels. I have much wider tires on the Hunq >>>> (55mm) than the Atlantis (40mm), which also affect the feel. I will get >>>> wider tires for the Atlantis, too. >>>> >>>> I very much take to heart a point Grant makes over and over: many >>>> factors and many variables beyond geometry numbers affect how a bike rides >>>> and feels. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 8:39:04 AM UTC-5 Masa wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jim, I too am really enjoying this thread to know how the people >>>>> ride/plan their Rivendells! >>>>> I can easily tell that how your Rivs are beautiful even from the head >>>>> badges:) >>>>> >>>>> Can I ask you how you describe the feel of the shorter wheelbase Rivs >>>>> please? >>>>> Since my only Riv is Platypus which has longer wheelbase and so do >>>>> majority of the current line up of Riv, I'm not familiar with the shorter >>>>> ones. >>>>> The more I like the feel of the longer wheelbase Riv, the more I'm >>>>> curious how is the feel of the shorter ones. >>>>> I would like to know how you feel them! >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Masa >>>>> >>>>> 2022年12月8日木曜日 11:33:57 UTC+9 J J: >>>>> >>>>>> I’m really enjoying this thread! Thanks for initiating it, Masa. >>>>>> >>>>>> Like John, I have a Waterford Hunqapillar (58) I bought new from >>>>>> Rivendell. Also like John, I have a Toyo Atlantis (61), a recent >>>>>> acquisition. So John's post really resonated. >>>>>> >>>>>> [image: Hunqapillar head badge.jpg] >>>>>> >>>>>> A few weeks ago someone asked me, “Why did you buy an Atlantis if you >>>>>> already have a Hunq?” I really hadn’t thought about that question. I >>>>>> guess >>>>>> the implication was that the two bikes had overlap of purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> To my mind it was more like, why *wouldn’t* I buy the Atlantis? It >>>>>> checked a lot of boxes: Toyo built; fully lugged; quintessential >>>>>> Rivendell; >>>>>> beautiful; robust; classic good looks; the submarine green. >>>>>> >>>>>> [image: Atlantis head badge.jpg] >>>>>> >>>>>> I don’t think anything could replace the Hunq, my true all-rounder. >>>>>> I’d buy another if the bike gods kindly bestowed one on me. There is >>>>>> precedent in my household of having two of the same bike, a Wilbury and >>>>>> a >>>>>> Glorius. >>>>>> >>>>>> [image: Wilbury head badge.jpg] >>>>>> >>>>>> [image: Glorius head badge.jpg] >>>>>> >>>>>> But the more I ride the Atlantis the more I appreciate just how >>>>>> special it is, too. It reminds me of the Hunq in robustness, stability, >>>>>> and >>>>>> lovely ride, but it is more compact and a bit livelier and lighter. And >>>>>> I >>>>>> could load it up if I needed to. I love the feel and aesthetics of the >>>>>> shorter wheelbase Rivs. All Rivs are great no matter where they are >>>>>> produced. There's something distinctive about the Toyo-built Rivs that's >>>>>> hard to pin down. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jim >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 2:03:24 PM UTC-5 Scott wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Shoji, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you for educating me on Atlantis history and sharing the >>>>>>> article...much appreciated! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:02:01 AM MST, Shoji Takahashi < >>>>>>> shoji.t...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scott, >>>>>>> "Atlantis 2" on Rivendell's model is because Bridgestone had an >>>>>>> "Atlantis" model, designed by Hiro Watanabe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can read about it in RR35 available here: >>>>>>> http://notfine.com/rivreader/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> Shoji >>>>>>> Arlington MA >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:19:56 PM UTC-5 Scott wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Affectionately acknowledged, Max. Ride on... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 10:15:44 AM MST, reynoldslugs < >>>>>>> be...@perrylaw.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scott et al - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> correction - sorry, the saddle on the Atlantis is an SMP Avant: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.performancebike.com/selle-smp-avant-saddle-black-aisi-304-rails-154mm-zstrikeamne/p1262159?v=531971&gclid=Cj0KCQiAkMGcBhCSARIsAIW6d0C4B_hvbJZzbo7h6LftzDSyVysuuUTlKKqOM_1-J5mYoAJjo7O4FOEaAta9EALw_wcB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It doesn't look as nice as the Selle Anatomica, but I switched a >>>>>>> number of bikes over to the SMP Avant split-seat in my post-cancer >>>>>>> life. >>>>>>> (I don't usually mention that, but it's no big deal and I'm figuring a >>>>>>> number of us have had to accomodate our bikes and components for all >>>>>>> kinds >>>>>>> of medical reasons as we get older. E.g., cross levers for old >>>>>>> arthritic >>>>>>> neck, split-saddles for post-surgical comfort.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Max B >>>>>>> Santa Rosa >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 9:04:27 AM UTC-8 reynoldslugs >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mon Cher Scott: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's my Atlantis, yes. It's one of the originals, I think I >>>>>>> bought it from Rivendell in 2003. I am not sure if that makes it a >>>>>>> Toyo or >>>>>>> something else, but I guess Toyo. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The saddle is a Selle Anatomica: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://selleanatomica.com/products/x1?currency=USD&variant=26447320072&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQiAkMGcBhCSARIsAIW6d0DMPdR14gbzi7T9zEFYIZ9F08qIQgL-wwcThaZvwO5jRqNN3IPjFhgaAqUhEALw_wcB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for the cockpit, those are regular in-line Paul Cross levers on >>>>>>> the handlebars: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.paulcomp.com/shop/components/brake-levers/inline/cross-lever/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My reasoning - i.e., the experience that led me to start putting >>>>>>> in-line cross levers on my bikes comes from long rides with long >>>>>>> downhills. After six hours or so of riding, they provide a >>>>>>> comfortable >>>>>>> alternative to braking in the drops. When I'm tired, I like to have >>>>>>> hand-position options for the Pine Flat Rd descent (3,000' descent), >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> one of the other hills around here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Max B >>>>>>> Santa Rosa CA >>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 8:47:53 AM UTC-8 Scott wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Max: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've wiped the drool from my chin and have a few questions about the >>>>>>> Atlantis, please. I assume it's yours. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it a Toyo model (I don't get the Atlantis squared decal on >>>>>>> downtube and the downtube shifter bosses)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What saddle is that?! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can you speak to and describe your cockpit and reasoning behind it, >>>>>>> namely the multiple brake levers (is one a pass-through/slave)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Happy Holidays, all! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 08:23:30 AM MST, reynoldslugs < >>>>>>> be...@perrylaw.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, I'd choose this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157696979339224 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and that: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157645542691980 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Legolas - fast and fun, light. Always makes me happy. >>>>>>> Atlantis - same but more rock solid. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My favorite bike... is whichever one I'm riding at the moment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Happy Holidays everyone, stay safe >>>>>>> Max Beach >>>>>>> Santa Rosa CA >>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 12:30:49 AM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey Masa! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is a cool companion to the occasional One Riv To Rule Them All >>>>>>> threads we do around here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm currently a one Riv (and one folding bike) person, my custom is >>>>>>> a low-stepover kinda-pavement-oriented bike like your Platypus: It'll >>>>>>> go >>>>>>> just about anywhere but wasn't designed for hardcore off-road riding or >>>>>>> full-on touring loads. I've done some shopping runs on it that I could >>>>>>> feel >>>>>>> in the frame was probably pushing my luck with how much weight I was >>>>>>> carrying, so for me my second Riv would be heavier duty. I've also >>>>>>> recently >>>>>>> moved to an area with a bunch of fire roads and singletrack, and >>>>>>> although >>>>>>> my riding interests/capabilities would preclude major mountain biking >>>>>>> escapades I'd still like to know my frame could take the abuse. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So I'd reach as far from my lightish roadish frame as possible, >>>>>>> which takes me past the lugged frames and into Clem or Gus territory. >>>>>>> What >>>>>>> I end up with - if/when I decide to do it - would depend largely on >>>>>>> money >>>>>>> and opportunity to pick something up. I really like the Gus but they're >>>>>>> pricey even used and rarely available; Clems are great and easier to >>>>>>> find. >>>>>>> I've owned a few and imagine I'll have one again sometime. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope this was helpful for you. I saw on another thread that you >>>>>>> asked Leah for a comparison of her Platy(s) and Clem L, I hope she >>>>>>> chimes >>>>>>> in here, she has much to say and says it well! 🙂 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe Bernard >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 9:52:42 PM UTC-8 Masa wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, I would like to ask you how you would choose 2 Rivendells if >>>>>>> you could own. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Which models? What kind of purposes? What kind of weather? What kind >>>>>>> of roads? Any definition is welcome. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm currently riding a Platypus and I feel like I can ride it >>>>>>> everywhere for any purpose as Riv says it's an All-rounder so I just >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> like to know how you would add one more Riv or how you are riding 2 >>>>>>> Rivs >>>>>>> already as a reference (possibly for my future 2nd Riv). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope you enjoy the topic! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Masa >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/bd14d409-f811-4838-927d-851d0aacc173n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/bd14d409-f811-4838-927d-851d0aacc173n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/aec17141-7226-487c-a9a8-6f8ca3a42692n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/aec17141-7226-487c-a9a8-6f8ca3a42692n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/0aaa3060-7a21-4b70-91ba-89ef1ac6ae3dn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/0aaa3060-7a21-4b70-91ba-89ef1ac6ae3dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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