Correct. I’ve seen the “w” caps on Toyo and Waterford Rivs alike. On Nov 4, 2023, at 5:45 PM, Greg J <gregkj...@gmail.com> wrote:
That seat stay cap was used across various models - I don't know if it is a Riv-sourced custom piece - but it doesn't have anything to do with Waterford (nor is it intended to be a "W" - just a decoration. On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 3:51:23 PM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:
Here’s mine. A Toyo by its serial number and Frank’s pics. You can see one of the third water bottle mounts at the top in the photo.Year? I don’t know. I bought the frameset third-hand, six years ago, and thought it might be 2009 using some of the info on CycloFiend.
David
On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 2:47:51 PM UTC-7 frank_a wrote:
![7052F7D8-A7C3-40E9-BF7D-7549C10B03C0.jpeg]() ![C25083FA-4E17-4971-90D1-18B4084AC777.jpeg]()
The serial number will tell you if it’s a Toyo or Waterford built frame.Toyo serial numbers are large and run across the bb shell while the Waterford numbers are smaller and are oriented around the shell, parallel to the outer edge. One photo is a Saluki and the other photo is a Waterford built Rosco. The Toyo Atlantis’ read: AT0001 and so on, Homer: AH0001 SA0026 - the 26th Saluki - Frank
On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 11:26:35 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:
I looked on Cyclofiend and where they were visible, the Atlantises all appeared to have the W. It may not be related to Waterford after all.
Laing
On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-4 Danny wrote:
The early Atlantis brochures show the W on the seat stay cap with Toyo being the only listed builder in the brochures. My Riv knowledge is not very deep, so perhaps Waterford was building the Atlantis as well at that time? or Riv was buying the seat stay caps from them?
-Danny
In general, is one not able to tell from the serial number?
Bill S San Diego
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 11:50:12 AM UTC-7 RichS wrote:
That is a first class detail. Don’t believe it was on my formerly owned 2014 Waterford Atlantis so perhaps the W was featured on certain models? I am fond of concave seat stay caps though. Happy that they’re on my Sam.
Best, Rich in ATL
Laing, thanks for the interesting bit about Waterford-built frames. This is the first I hear. I never noticed the W as a deliberate W (as opposed to being strictly an embellishment) on my Waterford Hunqapillar, so it was cool to see it for what it is. I had to check the other Rivs in the stable, all Toyo built, and of course none has the W.
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:47:06 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:
Don't Waterford frames have a distinctive seat stay end cap with a 'W" in the recess - my Bombadil does. This is a better picture from the Waterford site, but the same as my Bombadil:
![6881680380_566caa3985_z-nwiouwjw51r3qwj11ieoc8axc7o69w290ux5x1it4w.jpg]()
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 3:05:54 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
THAT'S it. I knew there was a difference between the two but couldn't remember the detail change. But I think yours is backwards, my recollection is Toyo had two sets of bottle bosses and the later Waterford got the third set.
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:
Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH to have three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two pairs (none under the down tube).
David Lipsky
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 7:11:42 PM UTC-7 James wrote:
I have an older AHH. Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or Waterford made?
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:
I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 (2015-ish) with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of them were 700C. I should also say that they are all gone at this point, nothing wrong with them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny object.
Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think your tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and ride more than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.
Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear racks, sidepull brakes and short stems: AHH 700x38 + dropbars SH 62 700x44 + dropbars SH 58 700x42 + Albatross
It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the Homer is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they were both equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer particularly when loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did I feel like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam.
Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose based on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more beautiful? Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a frame where you fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for either the Sam or the AHH I would choose that.
Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said it was hard to tell one from the other when you were riding them.
Best. Max
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:38:49 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak wrote:
Dave Grossman
What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your AHH-MUSA/MUJ ??? Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride better, or something else??? It seems the Roadini is more a pure road bike vs the all around nature of the AHH. Just curious.
John Hawrylak Woodstown NJ
On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:25:19 PM UTC-4 Dave Grossman wrote:
I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd like to know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it a much superior all around bike. I hadn't considered a Sam since I have a Hunq but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I desire. I rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it quite often. I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a large Fabs in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s. I have it maxed out, but it is such a great ride. I've thought about getting a stripped road bike but the Homer is so versatile. I think if I didn't have the Hunq, I'd be more inclined to get a Sam. But if you already have a hauler an older Homer is the way to go. I have a 63, which I am on the small side for with a 90 pbh, but it fits great and I love the ride. My Hunq is a 58 and while I can clear a 62 (I've ridden the 62 before) I love having the clearance that a slightly smaller frame allows for the rough stuff.
On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 4:27:16 PM UTC-5 ttoshi wrote:
Just to be more confusing, I have a circa 2012 Homer, and I believe the even sizes are 650b and the odd sizes are 700c, so there was some overlap within some of the sizes. I have a 54 cm AHH 650b, and I believe the 55 cm and 57 cm were 700c, while the 56 cm was 650b.
My Homer maxed out at 38 mm tires + fenders--I've used Parimoto, Lierre, GravelKing, and Soma Xpress, and all are good for me (depending upon the application, eg. commute vs fast ride). My favorite tire size for 650b is 42 mm, and I believe the Sam H can ride those with fenders, so I might lean that direction if I had to choose.
Toshi
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