Here's a snippet from an '04 Riv Reader article by a musculoskeletal professional about bars and bar heights. Whatever happened to this kind of wisdom in the onrushing advent of the current offering of frames, stems, and swooping high bars by Riv?
Raise Dat Stem! by Bob Gordon A flat back is one of the hallmarks of an experienced cyclist, particularly a racer, and over the years I have seen the prevailing attitudes towards rider positioning devolve to the point where if you don't cycle with your back parallel to the ground, you're cast off as a beginner. But like many other concepts recreational riders adopt, the low back originated in the professional ranks after extensive research in aerodynamics proved this would help the fast go faster. Competitive athletes routinely sacrifice both their short and long term health for the express purpose of winning, but you may have a different agenda. Lower back disc problems peak the ages of 30 and 50. There are many causes, but if your back pain is exacerbated by riding, it's a good bet the cause is bouncing around on your bike while your lower spine is extensively flexed (loss of lower back arch). A low, forward torso causes the inner portion of the disc (the nucleus purposes) to press back against the outer restraining fibers (the annulus fibroses). This pressure eventually causes the disc to bulge or herniate. The nearby nerves get squeezed, and the next thing you know, someone like me is telling you you have sciatica. Cycling mitigates some of the problems of a habitually flexed lumbar spine because of the "bridge effect" that's created by resting some of your weight on your hands. But the lumbar region and its soft tissues are still at risk just by being continuously hyper flexed, and if you sit all day at your job, the danger is compounded. On the flip side, cycling entirely upright does not solve the problem either. True, the inter-vertebral discs and spinal ligaments are in a more neutral position and absorb shock better, but the load is now transmitted axially, which is fatiguing and jarring. Also, in a bolt-upright position you can't use your gluteus or hamstrings to great advantage, which means your thighs (quadriceps) get overworked, you lose a lot of power, the unused hamstrings and gluteal muscles go flabby, and you catch all that wind. It's hard to be happy about all that, racer or no. There is, however, a position that allows good performance while minimizing risk of lower back injury. I like a stem height and length that puts your back about 50 degrees from horizontal, while your arms and legs bend slightly at the elbows, as shown in figure 2 up there. To achieve this, you'll probably have to raise your bars, and assuming you want to keep the same bar style (as opposed to riding with stingray bars or something), that usually means getting another stem, one with a taller quill or a steep rise to it. If you hit the sweet spot, a photo of you from the side will reveal a nice pyramid composed of top tube, torso and arms. Notice the final sentence, "...If you hit the sweet spot, a photo of you from the side will reveal a nice pyramid composed of top tube, torso and arms..." On Monday, September 8, 2025 at 5:16:24 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote: > This is excellent advice. > > On Mon, Sep 8, 2025 at 3:35 PM Elisabeth Sherwood <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> … I encourage you to, as you’re riding, trying to imagine where your >> hands *would like to be*. If you're riding along, and your back is at an >> angle that you're comfortable at, where would your hands be if you just let >> your arms extend gently out at about an 80-degree angle from your torso? >> Would they be higher? Lower? Closer? Further? >> > >> And, if you can identify that spot, what would it take to get the >> handlebars into that position? A different stem? A different handlebar? >> A different stem/handlebar combination? >> > On Mon, Sep 8, 2025 at 3:35 PM Elisabeth Sherwood <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hi Jamie, >> >> As with so many other things, unfortunately the answer is "it depends"! >> >> I think Will's advice re. type of bars and how to set them up is spot on. >> I find modern shallow-drop, relatively-short-reach handlebars to be >> enormously comfortable, and the best way to set up brake levers is to have >> them "coming out" of the top of the bars pretty evenly -- the continuous >> surface that Will mentioned. (Note that modern bars are really so >> different from bars from even 15 years ago. And bars from 25-30-40 years >> ago, with brake levers placed kind of on the middle of the drop portion of >> the bars? I have no idea how anyone got comfortable on them!) >> >> The rest really depends on the source of your discomfort. If your bike >> is actually appropriate for drop bars (and it seems that most "modern" >> Rivendells are not), try to identify what's going on... Are you >> uncomfortable because there is too much pressure on your hands? In my >> experience maybe 15% of the time it's because the bars are too low, and >> you're falling "onto" the bars. But I find that probably 80% of the time >> (and this being a Riv forum I'll probably get lectured about this) it's >> because the bars are too high, and what you're actually feeling is pressure >> coming from the handlebars onto your hands/shoulders/neck, and/or too far >> (in which case, while you're not falling onto the bars, you've got your >> body weight falling forward in a way that you can't relieve through your >> core or through your leg strength as you pedal). >> >> I encourage you to, as you're riding, trying to imagine where your hands >> *would like to be*. If you're riding along, and your back is at an angle >> that you're comfortable at, where would your hands be if you just let your >> arms extend gently out at about an 80-degree angle from your torso? Would >> they be higher? Lower? Closer? Further? >> >> And, if you can identify that spot, what would it take to get the >> handlebars into that position? A different stem? A different handlebar? >> A different stem/handlebar combination? >> >> Oh, also, handlebar positions depends a lot on body geometry. Pro racers >> whose handlebars are so very low compared to their saddles? Their back >> angles on the bike are not really all that different from most moderately >> serious recreational riders. But they tend to have really long limbs, so >> their bikes are set up in ways that mere mortals could never contemplate. >> For those of us with *relatively* short arms, we'll need the handlebars >> higher and closer than those with relatively longer arms. >> >> (How do you know if you have relatively short or long arms? When I sit >> on the ground with my legs straight out and my back perpendicular, I can't >> actually touch the ground with my palms. I know people that sit the same >> way and their arms are bent at like a 120-degree angle. Even if we're the >> same height, our handlebars will need to be set up completely differently >> in order for us to be comfortable.) >> >> No idea if that helps... Good luck! >> >> Elisabeth Sherwood >> Washington, DC >> >> >> >> On Monday, September 8, 2025 at 12:28:42 PM UTC-4 Jamie D. wrote: >> >>> I keep trying drop bars in various forms and fashions and can never seem >>> to get comfortable. Obviously this is subjective but in your experience is >>> higher bars with shorter reach the most comfortable? Is there a >>> 'goldilocks' zone? Any wisdom you could share would be greatly appreciated! >> >> -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/dd8f96c9-76b2-4310-8a2b-9b3668febe90n%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/dd8f96c9-76b2-4310-8a2b-9b3668febe90n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > > > -- > > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing > services > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,* > > *But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,* > > *I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.* > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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