Not too insulting. In fact, Leslie, I have compared us to Orvis in print already, I think within the past years, but I don't know where. When I started fly-fishing at 11, my dad got me an LL Bean glass rod starter outfit, and soon learned about Orvis, and a guy I knew (Hal Jannsen, google him) fished an Orvis midge, and by the time I was 16 I'd saved my money $135) and got on of those. I kept on fishing and eventually felt (as some do about us) that I'd "outgrown" Orvis, as I learned about smaller brands that my 15-16 year old radar hadn't picked up: Over the next many years I got a Winston, Leonard, Gary Howells, and Bob Summers rods, which are all boutiquier, but no better. The fishing pole/bike analogy isn't perfect. It acknowledges that littler-known brands are automatically assumed to be better in some way than better-knowners (related, no doubt, to how the more scholarly you are about any topic, the tinier the facts you know)--- but in the case of bikes, there's often a more substantial-fundamental- even huge difference. Talking about this in detail can only make me look petty or slick or bad in some way, so I'll limit the detail, but I gotta say this:
Brazing skill matters, BUT it is impossible to evaluate brazing by looking. Super sloppy brazing with overflow and overheating is obvious, but underbrazing is impossible to detect (particularly in frame joints other than the bottom bracket). There can be a fine line of brass or silver around the edge of a lug, with no penetration into the joint, for instance. And, sometimes when there's full penetration, there may be what seems to be a small gap at the edge of a lug, as the brazing material pulls in just under the lip, about 0.1mm or so, as it cools. An amateur looker may see the gap and think, "Aha! Bad!" even though the joint is thoroughly brazed where it matters. It comes down to stuff about the joint that only the brazer is in a position to know, at that point it's a matter of trust. Under-the- radar builders are under less scrutiny, which itself doesn't --- obviously -- have anything to do with brazing skill or thoroughness, either in a bad or good way. It does mean that Rivendell has more to lose by a screw-up than does an unknown. The stakes are higher for us---with 14 employees whose jobs depend on us not screwing up. We have had frames that I know (strongly believe, based on what I know of them) to be 100 percent structural, but there's a superficial gap in one spot, and we don't send them out into the world as perfect. Usually we hold 'em and do nothing, or might build one up as a demo, or an employee will get it ultra cheap. Let's say there's a gap at a BB shell sleeve. Well, if there's braze all the way around on the inside of the shell, you can bet this is a suck-gap (where the braze is sucked in as it cools) and not a gap of consequence. You can tell this because the braze is introduced outside the shell and pulled through with the flame, so if it shows all around inside, the only way it could've gotten there is from the outside, and that's fantastic evidence of good penetration. (On outer frame lugs, it's more a matter of faith). The unimportant gaps (suck-gaps) occur at all price levels, with brass and silver. It doesn't make sense to re-heat the joint to fill it in---you end up reflowing the braze, reheating the steel, and for what---?--you degrade the joint in an attempt to calm a worrier. Anyway, it's rare, and this is feeling like a tangent. Back to our frames versus their frames, or whatever. Look at clearances and look for balance, top and side; bridge location, crown hole location, tire and fender compatibility, bar-height relative to saddle height. Those are substantive details that seem to be obvious and easy, but getting them right is in fact are incredibly rare. Finely filed lugs and paint and that stuff is good, but it often OFTEN comes as part of a package that lacks the underlying important stuff that goes unnoticed. Tandems that max out with 32mm tires. Road bikes that max out at 28. Eyelets on bikes that don't have fender clearance. Silver-brazed joints that paint up clean but pull apart. Impressive tube decals and 28 hours of labor into frames that don't fit, and aren't suited to the rider's needs. There are lots of good builders---more by volume than there have ever been, no doubt. BUT...the unknown gnome or even a reputation doesn't for us or them guarantee anything. There's no good way to end this. I BELIEVE I know our bikes, and I BELIEVE they pass our standards, which I know to be high. OK, back to watching the BORAF, aka TdeF. On Jul 21, 9:58 pm, Leslie <[email protected]> wrote: > Maybe an analogy.... > > When I first started fly fishing, I bought the 'intro' level Orvis rod. > Good rod, but, wasn't long until I was eyeing other rods, like Winston, > Sage... Orvis had a lot more expensive rods, I didn't want to go that far > up the scale, so I thought I could find better than the low-end Orvis stuff > elsewhere for less. Thing about Orvis, they have nice rods and reels, and > anything you get from them is usually top-notch in function and aesthetics; > however, I will say, some of their other items, like clothing, or associated > gadgets, they find decent, good gear, and either relabel it, or just sell it > too, but, usually at a noticable mark-up over what you could find it for > elsewhere. Anyway, I ended up getting a G.Loomis Streamdance, which is > still my favorite, my go-to rod for tailwater trout here. For smallmouth, > ended up w/ another Loomis (an aside: Loomis is now owned by Shimano), and a > Winston for my son. Thing is, I somehow got in my head that, Orvis was a > good go-to company to get people into fly-fishing, but there were other > companies that were focusing on just specifics [kind of like comparing LL > Bean's encompassing catalog of about anything you could need, against Sage, > with just rods, reels, and maybe just a few other things like a vest or a > hat, etc.]. But as time went on, I started becoming more critical of other > companies, and started appreciating small things about the higher-end Orvis > rods, and ended up back buying my next couple of rods from Orvis... paid > more for some of the rods than I ever would have believed I would have when > I started out, but, I had learned to appreciate some of the nuances that > come w/ the extra costs. > > I hope Grant doesn't find this insulting or a bad thing, but I think of > Rivendell as the Orvis of steel bicycles. [Is it ironic that I first learned > of Rivendell while in my local Orvis shop?] There are some models that have > been over the years that have brought people to Rivendell (thinking of the > Bleriot, and maybe the Soma San Marcos will; and maybe the Sam Hillborne); > and, every single thing that Riv sells is a good item (even if, there are > some of them that I can find elsewhere for less); they sell so much more > than just a bicycle, aside from frames and components, you have MUSA, > stoves, sleeping bags, knives, tools, books, wax, soap, toys... I'm amazed > at some of the cool things they have. And, likewise with my > post-Orvis-intro, having gotten into Rivendell, I've ended up learning about > other bikes that I'd never heard of before (Hampsten, Handsome, Vassago, > Ragley, Singular, Bruce Gordon) [before Rivendell, I knew Trek, Fuji, > Specialized, Cannondale, Giant (and my Nishiki), Schwinn, etc., but that's > *that* level, not the same level as the aforementioned). I considered > certain ones of those others, Kona, Surly, etc., but, in the end, I worked > myself up into justifying the cost of the Rivendell instead... so I've got > a Rambouillet now, and, am also waiting on my next Riv frame to get in.... > > So, I suppose, I'd say, to work it off of your premise, I would state it > as: "I was gonna buy a bike, and then talked myself into a Riv... then, was > gonna get something else, and came back to Riv instead... " > > (and, I hope y'all don't think I'm a complete loon now!)..... :) > > -L -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
