I am grateful for the feedback offered on the discussion paper (http://www.rda-jsc.org/docs/6JSC-ALA-Discussion-1.pdf) and am glad to hear that some of you think that implementing an Extent of Expression element (to disambiguate content and carrier) would be a step in the right direction.
I agree with the comment by Thomas about pagination: " ... the measurement isn't usually based on the actual number of pages, but on the recording of the last numbered page." Even in rare materials cataloging, where every page of every sequence is accounted for (as Larry notes), pagination is more of a statement than a *measurement* (i.e. a simple count). It is a shorthand for how the pages are marked that, more often than not, also happens to give the user a good approximation of the extent of the resource. This shorthand is expedient and it makes sense to carry on. If, however, we someday implement machine-actionable elements for recording extent, we may want to treat pagination/foliation in a manner slightly different than how we treat extents that are pure numerical measurements. The discussion paper was completed before the TF had an opportunity to digest related proposals going before the JSC this fall (namely, the EURIG paper on illustrative content, but also CCC/14 on the dimensions of still image, which is also somewhat related). I look forward to the JSC response to all of these. Francis Lapka -----Original Message----- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Brenndorfer, Thomas Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:14 AM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Extent -- some ideas That separation of content and carrier is what makes sense. In much the same way that the different concepts in the GMD were unpacked, the Extent element needs to go further than it has, and currently it looks compromised because of the need for backwards-compatibility for the compact displays in traditional catalog displays. An example like "26 unnumbered pages of plates" shows that Extent of "Text" is not the right concept to apply, as the plates may include nothing but illustrations. RDA 3.4.5.1 also pushes the boundaries when it indicates that Extent of Text can also be used as subunits in an atlas and in a resource consisting of notated music. Thomas Brenndorfer Guelph Public Library ________________________________ From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Joan Wang [jw...@illinoisheartland.org] Sent: August-21-13 9:55 AM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Extent -- some ideas My initial thought is to separate carrier from content. Carrier types and extent of carrier should be defined irrelevant of content. A sheet is a sheet. A volume is a volume, no matter what content is on or in. They all are about physical objects in your hand. Pagination seems to be a part of some carriers. So if a carrier type includes a pagination, record it. Apparently RDA attempts to use pagination instead of volume to record extent of volumes mainly with text. But it forgets that not only text could be carried by a volume. I feel that is why it causes a trouble :-) Thanks, Joan Wang Illinois Heartland Library System On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Brenndorfer, Thomas <tbrenndor...@library.guelph.on.ca<mailto:tbrenndor...@library.guelph.on.ca>> wrote: Use subelements under Pagination. Example of similar situation: Element: Dimensions SubElement: Dimensions of Map, Etc. SubElement: Dimensions of Still Image Thomas Brenndorfer Guelph Public Library ________________________________________ From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>] On Behalf Of Laurence S. Creider [lcrei...@lib.nmsu.edu<mailto:lcrei...@lib.nmsu.edu>] Sent: August-20-13 5:45 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA> Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Extent -- some ideas I am with you until, "The other benefit to treating Pagination as a separate element is that it's unique in that the measurement isn't usually based on the actual number of pages, but on the recording of the last numbered page." How would this be different from recording the complete sequences of pages (whether paginated or not), as one does in the description of early printed materials and in using DCRM(B)? Thank you, Larry -- Laurence S. Creider Head, Archives and Special Collections Dept. University Library New Mexico State University Las Cruces, NM 88003 Work: 575-646-4756<tel:575-646-4756> Fax: 575-646-7477<tel:575-646-7477> lcrei...@lib.nmsu.edu<mailto:lcrei...@lib.nmsu.edu> On Tue, August 20, 2013 1:53 pm, Brenndorfer, Thomas wrote: > On the topic of improving the idea of "Extent," this discussion paper > is on the right track: > > http://www.rda-jsc.org/docs/6JSC-ALA-Discussion-1.pdf > > The main problem has its source in cramming too many overlapping ideas > into the 300$a field. There are different things being counted. > > Extent of Expression and Extent of Manifestation are the first > distinctions that should be made. Extent of Notated Music is > unabashedly an expression level measurement as the terms are pulled > from the expression element in RDA 7.20.1.3. Cartographic resources > and still images often don't have the same measurement as the number > of carrier units (as in "1 atlas (2 volumes)" or "1 print on 24 sheets"). > > The norm for Extent should be the number of carrier type units, > accompanied by carrier subunits as appropriate: > > Carrier type: audio disc > Extent: 3 audio discs > > Carrier type: filmstrip > Extent: 1 filmstrip (28 frames) > > > I do have an issue with Extent of Text, in that this measurement > shouldn't be associated just with text. The other problem is that > pagination subunits aren't just associated with physical volumes > either. Consider the example in RDA 3.4.1.7.1: "1 computer disc (xv > pages, 150 maps)" or in RDA > 3.4.1.7.4: "3 microfiches (1 score (118 pages))". > > > For those reasons I would treat Pagination as a new independent > element under Extent of Manifestation, to be used wherever it is appropriate. > > To make this work one would have to count out every Extent > measurement. To recreate the classic catalog card display as found in > 300$a, one would have to follow rules and/or algorithms to collapse > some measurements into the original compact displayed form. > > So for example, a book would be: > > Carrier Type: volume > Extent of Carrier: 1 volume > Pagination: xiv, 383 pages > > Traditional display: xiv, 383 pages > > > > But where the units of extent draw in the Carrier Type (from RDA > 3.4.5.17), the logic of this arrangement becomes more apparent: > > Carrier Type: volume > Extent of Carrier: 3 volumes > Pagination: xx, 300 pages > > Traditional display: 3 volumes (xx, 800 pages) > > > Such a clean and logical separation would do wonders. > > > Consider atlases in RDA 3.4.2.5 in this way: > > 1 atlas (1 volume (various pagings)) > > would be encoded as: > > Content Type: cartographic image > Extent of Cartographic Resource: 1 atlas Carrier Type: volume Extent > of Carrier: 1 volume > Pagination: various pagings > > where Extent of Cartographic Resource would be under a new Extent of > Expression element. > > > Consider notated music in this way: > > 1 score (viii, 278 pages) > > Content Type: notated music > Extent of Notated Music: 1 score > Carrier Type: volume > Extent of Carrier: 1 volume > Pagination: viii, 278 pages > > > > Another example of multiple things being measured-- here we see Extent > of Manifestation, Extent of Expression, and Pagination all together: > > 3 microfiches (1 score (118 pages)) > > Content Type: notated music > Extent of Notated Music: 1 score > Carrier Type: microfiche > Extent of Carrier: 3 microfiches > Pagination: 118 pages > > > The other benefit to treating Pagination as a separate element is that > it's unique in that the measurement isn't usually based on the actual > number of pages, but on the recording of the last numbered page. > > > Thomas Brenndorfer > Guelph Public Library -- Zhonghong (Joan) Wang, Ph.D. Cataloger -- CMC Illinois Heartland Library System (Edwardsville Office) 6725 Goshen Road Edwardsville, IL 62025 618.656.3216x409 618.656.9401Fax
