Ilsco Kupler taps are common and come in a variety of sizes. http://ebusiness.ilsco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId =10001&langId=-1&catalogId=1&categoryId=151
-August Luminalt Energy Corporation -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erika M. Weliczko Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 10:27 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ahem... supply side taps I wonder about the UL listing for this modification of the busbar of the original listed assembly. Seems to me that if there are multiple lug locations meant for parallel feeders that might be a candidate. Potentially landing on the load side if switchgear has multiple output lugs meant to feed subs. There are also a variety of tap (electrical, not threads) connectors that may make the connection possible. See Ilsco catalog. erika -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 7:52 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ahem... supply side taps We recently completed a job where we were able to tap into the 3 phase buss bars in a switchgear cabinet located close to our inverters. We had an electrician drill and tap the bars (dead of course) and lug the inverter outputs (via a subpanel) to them. This was In a 208V system. I do have pics, but not posted on a website. Regards, Glenn Burt Technical Specialist Renewable Power Systems, LLC PO Box 967 Averill Park, NY 12018 V: 518-674-5808 C: 518-810-3174 F: 518-514-1175 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.RPSpower.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Blick Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 7:15 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] ahem... supply side taps Hi Everyone, We are installing two grid-tied commercial systems that we will need to do supply side taps in order to connect to the grid. I am curious as to exactly how this is achieved? Hoping that those of you who have done supply side taps on three-phase 480V or three phase 120/208 systems could shed some light on this for me. What parts do we use to achieve connection? Does anyone have any photos? Thanks all in advance for your advice........ Jeff Blick PV installer Sunlight Solar Inc. 4 NW Franklin Bend, OR 97701 direct: 541-306-4196 fax: 541-322-1911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.sunlightsolar.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 4:00 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 1, Issue 111 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original Today's Topics: 1. Re: Followup to Surrette Battery Question (Bruce Geddes) 2. Re: Followup to Surrette Battery Question (mick abraham) 3. Re: Followup to Surrette Battery Question (Dana) 4. line side taps (Jeff Blick) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 09:58:55 +1200 From: Bruce Geddes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Followup to Surrette Battery Question To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original > And one final question: In my original post I asked if deionized water was > the same as distilled water. Nobody addressed this question. The customer > said he investigated (Wikipedia, I think) and found no difference. Any > other > opinions, or (even better) definitive answers on this? > > Thank you, > Allan at PosE An interesting post Allan and a pretty thorough run down on what happened - thank you for the information. To the best of my understanding deionised water has been passed through an ion exchange filter so any reactive particles are removed. Distilled water has been distilled (evaporated and condensed) and this does not mean it is totally unreactive. Any volitile compounds in the water may have been distilled also and still be in solution. It will be sterile though. The water I source here in New Zealand (maybe not availalble in the States) has been through both processes and is sold as a food grade product for manufacturing tinctures etc. Dirt cheap from a bulk retail store unlike distilled water which is pretty pricey. Bruce Geddes PowerOn ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:08:32 -0600 From: "mick abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Followup to Surrette Battery Question To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Allen Sindelar was polling for information/opinions about deionized water versus distilled for lead battery top-up. Since "genuine steam distilled" H2O can be bought for $0.69 per gallon, why take chances on anything else? There are enough other possible problems without creating more for ourselves. On the subject of battery health, equalization issues, etc: I just got a batch of customized monitors which can capture the voltage on each 2-volt cell at the same instant. There's also a datalogger option which will record the snapshots over time. This should be a handy tool for us "battery diagnosticians". For a 48 volt string, 25 electrical connections must be made in order to read all the cells. The simultaneous capture means no more worries about the "end to end voltage" moving while the tech is trying to measure the cells. Some end users may also want to add this to their high end battery systems. Interested Wrenches may contact me off list and I'll send you a .pdf info flyer plus pricing info. Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:41:42 -0600 From: "Dana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Followup to Surrette Battery Question To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" No DI water is not the same as Distilled water. Thanks - Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc www.solarwork.com E - [EMAIL PROTECTED] V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Geddes Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 3:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Followup to Surrette Battery Question > And one final question: In my original post I asked if deionized water was > the same as distilled water. Nobody addressed this question. The customer > said he investigated (Wikipedia, I think) and found no difference. Any > other > opinions, or (even better) definitive answers on this? > > Thank you, > Allan at PosE An interesting post Allan and a pretty thorough run down on what happened - thank you for the information. To the best of my understanding deionised water has been passed through an ion exchange filter so any reactive particles are removed. Distilled water has been distilled (evaporated and condensed) and this does not mean it is totally unreactive. Any volitile compounds in the water may have been distilled also and still be in solution. It will be sterile though. The water I source here in New Zealand (maybe not availalble in the States) has been through both processes and is sold as a food grade product for manufacturing tinctures etc. Dirt cheap from a bulk retail store unlike distilled water which is pretty pricey. Bruce Geddes PowerOn _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:59:11 -0700 From: "Jeff Blick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [RE-wrenches] line side taps To: <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hi Everyone, We are installing two grid-tied commercial systems that we will need to do line side taps in order to connect to the grid. I am curious as to exactly how this is achieved? Hoping that those of you who have done line side taps on three-phase 480V or three phase 120/208 systems could shed some light on this for me. What parts do we use to achieve connection? Does anyone have any photos? Thanks all in advance for your advice........ Jeff Blick PV installer Sunlight Solar Inc. 4 NW Franklin Bend, OR 97701 direct: 541-306-4196 fax: 541-322-1911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.sunlightsolar.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 2:11 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 1, Issue 110 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original Today's Topics: 1. Utility disco DC? (Drake Chamberlin) 2. Re: Utility disco DC? (Erika M. Weliczko (REPOWER SOLUTIONS)) 3. Re: Utility disco DC? (David Brearley) 4. Re: Followup to Surrette Battery Question (Allan Sindelar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:56:16 -0700 From: "Drake Chamberlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utility disco DC? To: <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello Wrenches Can the lockable utility disconnect be DC? Has anyone tried this? On an add on system we found this had been done. It would be convenient to use this method. Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachme nts/20080902/b1c3d5ee/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:02:00 -0400 From: "Erika M. Weliczko (REPOWER SOLUTIONS)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility disco DC? To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Depends on utility probably but most around here specify AC disconnect. Probably since they only really speak one language. erika ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:28:00 -0500 From: David Brearley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility disco DC? To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" One of my previous colleagues negotiated this on a high profile project in a new jurisdiction. The inspector didn?t have a problem with this. You should definitely talk to the AHJ. It?s not a difficult case to make: no PV input = no inverter output. Good luck, David On 9/2/08 2:56 PM, "Drake Chamberlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello Wrenches > > Can the lockable utility disconnect be DC? Has anyone tried this? On an add > on system we found this had been done. It would be convenient to use this > method. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > David Brearley, Technical Editor > SolarPro magazine > NABCEP Certified PV Installer ? > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Direct: 541.261.6545 > Fax: 541.512.0343 > > Visit our Web site at solarprofessional.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachme nts/20080902/c6d35d41/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:10:28 -0600 From: "Allan Sindelar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Followup to Surrette Battery Question To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wrenches, I had promised a followup post on what I learned when I inspected this client's batteries. The short form of the original issue (original post query is at bottom): client had as recently as June been able to EQ from his array to 31.1V, now couldn't get past 30.7. There are a few good lessons here. Upon arrival: Batteries at 78 degrees F in basement. TM2020 indicated pretty high late-morning SOC, but still charging in bulk. Cell voltages (two-cell pairs) ranged from 4.80 to 4.82, so pretty close range there. Specific gravities, though, ranged from 1.234 to 1.260, measured with a refractometer, with lowest cells getting rechecked and verified. The cells with both the lowest and highest SGs had the (slightly) highest cell voltages. About 52A input, less 10A load. Enabled EQ from MX60; temperature rose to 84F. Voltage measured at MX60: 30.7; voltage on MX60 display: 30.9 (I corrected this); voltage measured at battery terminals 30.45. The 1/4V drop is in the cables and remaining disconnects of the original and upgraded system DC disconnects and cables. My observations: 1. Small amount of liquid pooling in EPDM battery box liner. Asking lotsa questions determined that the owner was near-obsessive in maintaining his batteries, and added water every month. These large Surrette cells had replaced multiple strings of golf-carts, so old habits die hard, even with much larger electrolyte reserves. We determined that he was filling the cells too often and too full, which was causing some electrolyte spillage. As any spilled electrolyte was later replaced with water, some cells were thus being diluted. I suspect that this is the primary cause of lower EQ voltage. What made this worse was that we had replaced his charge controller with an MX60 and showed him how to engage EQ on it. All MX60s show a screen on EQ startup that says "Check Water Level". He had interpreted this to mean add water before equalizing. The bubbling and expansion of the EQ overcharge then caused more spilled electrolyte. 2. The fan on the MX60 had failed, as many of them have. While I don't know for sure, this may have either limited the unit's output due to temperature rise, or may have caused a misinterpretation of battery voltage or temperature correction; either could have caused these symptoms. The customer noted that he was familiar with the fan's sound, but hadn't noticed that it had recently stopped. So my actions: 1. Increased absorption time. 2. Disassembled and cleaned three terminals that were beginning to show corrosion (even with Quick-Cote on them). 3. Advised the customer to fill his batteries less often and less full. 4. Set MX60 Max EQ time temporarily to the max (7 hours, I think) and instructed him to do a corrective EQ from the array for at least a week. 5. Ordered a warranty replacement fan from Outback. 6. Recommended he not sell his generator but repair it, in order to get his EQ C/rate up to C/10 or so for hotter charging and winter EQ. I could also add electrolyte to the cells with the lowest SG after all this, but how much to add is a real crapshoot. Can anyone offer guidance on adding electrolyte to compensate for spillage? And one final question: In my original post I asked if deionized water was the same as distilled water. Nobody addressed this question. The customer said he investigated (Wikipedia, I think) and found no difference. Any other opinions, or (even better) definitive answers on this? Thank you, Allan at PosE -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 11:54 AM Wrenches, Thank you for the whole set of responses. I haven't been to the site yet, but plan to stop there this week. As the symptoms are not easily explained, I wanted to put the problem out for ideas here first, to reduce the chance of missing something. I will report back with what I learn. I will first check whether the 0.4 V discrepancy is related to battery temperature. It seems to me that the simplest way to do this is to check the MX60 settings during equalization. If the measured voltage is at the MX60's temperature-compensated EQ voltage, then a warm environment is the apparent cause of the reduced voltage. To answer a few of your many questions and fill in some details: 1. As I noted in my original post, the MX60 is temperature compensated. The VFX3524 is too, although the client tells me he hasn't run the generator since we added the 1.28 kW array. 2. To the best of my knowledge, the charge controll settings have not changed (that would be too easy!). The client hasn't changed settings, and we take care of all of their service needs. 3. The client equalizes regularly, as he notes in his description: last EQ (to 31.1 v) was in June. 4. The array is wired 48V, so hot modules and/or undersized wire isn't a voltage-limitation issue. 5. There are 6 4V batteries, 12 cells. I had conservatively figured the charge rate at about C/20, so the charge rate is adequate for off-grid. I most likely have the MX60 set to two hours absorption with a 2% done amps override to lessen gassing. After Surrette's tech bulletin about batteries in off-grid applications (recommending higher charge voltages and longer absorption times) came out, I started setting longer absorption times; I will go back and increase the absorption time on these to three hours, while keeping the 2% done amps in place. Would anyone argue with this setting change? 6. Tri-Metric voltage readings usually vary from MX60 readings, yes, but they don't tend to change over time. This situation is presented as a recent change from consistent past performance. 7. The client has not checked individual cell voltages or specific gravities. I will do that when I go there on a service call and will report back. 8. Re the quick C/5 charge idea: I would ask Jamie Surrette for his recommendation here. For sure, it hasn't happened; the client says the generator (an older Honda 5500, I think) needs service before it will start. I'll advise him not to sell it (as he plans) until we have resolved this and gotten Jamie's advice on battery care. 9. Miscalibration of the MX60 is unlikely but possible, and I will check this when on site. Thank you to the many of you who responded. Jamie Surrette responded off-list too, asking about battery temperature. I will report back after checking all of the above. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- Wrenches, In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS 6V 1104 A/hr batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time client. The client's system had a democracy array of around 800 watts of tracked PV. In early 2005 we added 1,280 watts of additional PV, and the client hasn't run the generator since; the system rarely drops below 80% and fills to 100% most days in sunny New Mexico. Batteries are located in a basement, so temperatures stay relatively constant, although it will vary slightly seasonally. MX60 controller is temperature compensated, with 29.6 VDC bulk and 31.4 VDC EQ set points. The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve previous EQ voltages, and this inability appears to be a new development. The system is otherwise performing well. As the client is sharp and pays close attention to the system's operation, I'm not ready to blame user ignorance (with one possible exception; read on). This may be an issue of seasonally warm temperatures, but I'm not sure this would explain the full 0.4 VDC reduction in voltage. I told him that I would post his problem to this list, and also request advice from Surrette Battery. Here is the client's description of the symptoms: I'm concerned that I am unable to equalize batteries at this time. Up until June of this year the Tri-Metric readings during equalizing indicated holding voltage at 31.1, with maximum amps gain of around 52. Three weeks ago, when set on equalize, the maximum voltage reading was 30.7, with maximum amps of 46; this was reached around noon, and by around 1:30 pm voltage/amps began its typical afternoon drop-off. I attempted equalizing on two other occasions since then--the last time this past Saturday, with clear skies up until mid-afternoon--but having the same results. So, the question is: are my batteries beginning their decline? We've had this set for 4 1/2 years, so it would seem a bit too early for this, given that these batteries are expected to last 7-10 years. Second issue, possibly related: On another matter, I have been using deionized water for the batteries for as long as we've been using photovoltaics (since 1991), as it is my understanding that deioinized water is virtually the same as distilled water--I just checked Wikipedia on this (using "deionized and distilled water" as the search phrase), and this appears to be the case. I don't know the answer to this question, as we have always recommended distilled water only in batteries, and have never faced this question. Any help would be appreciated. Allan Sindelar ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 1, Issue 110 ******************************************* ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 1, Issue 111 ******************************************* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.93 / Virus Database: 0.0.0/0 - Release Date: <unknown> 12:00 AM _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org