Many thanks to all of you who responded. It's good to hear I am not alone in this issue, and I think my approach has been in line with others. There are lots of bad deals out there, and installing equipment supplied by others is just too risky in most cases. I have no problem supplying a bill of materials (at least major components), but line item pricing isn't something I'll be doing. Now I feel a bit better remaining steadfast in our policy and passing on these opportunities.
Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Allan Sindelar < al...@positiveenergysolar.com> wrote: > Jason, > As our Rates and Policies outline is posted on our website and thus > available for anyone to see, I can excerpt it for you on this list. I > encourage you not to worry about this market segment. They're not your > customer base. We seldom sell just components to customers with whom we > don't have a relationship already. I tell them up front that if they know > what they want, they can find it cheaper from an internet discounter. By > expressing that willingness to send them elsewhere, I'm implicitly saying > that there's value added in working with us (paying both a higher price > and, if real design time is involved in assessing their needs and > recommending the right product(s), paying for our consultation labor as > well). With our experience and knowledge, we'll give them a better solution. > > Here is a list of our published policies from our website, developed over > many years: > > a) Positive Energy provides unsurpassed knowledge, quality of work, and > after-sale support. We do not meet-or-beat others' prices. > b) We install to the requirements of the National Electric Code (NEC). We > may not agree with particular aspects of the Code, but we will install to > Code where required, and usually where not required. > c) As licensed, bonded and insured electrical contractors, we prefer to > permit all installations under our own license. > d) We will generally require a 50% up-front deposit to order equipment. > e) We do not generally maintain a large inventory of major components. > This allows us to recommend the best equipment for each situation, rather > than what we have in stock, and allows us to supply fresh product stock. > f) Our final invoice presents the job total, with itemized descriptions > for components, installation materials, permit fees, installation labor, > and travel time and mileage. > g) We will not install equipment purchased elsewhere. > h) We will not service or install equipment on RVs or other traveling > vehicles. We do build stand alone power systems on platforms that may be > transportable. > i) These rates and policies apply to all work performed unless otherwise > agreed to in advance of work being performed. > > Reread g) above, Jason. There's no money in installing customer-supplied > equipment. The discounter already made the profit, you make at best a wage, > you have no stake in the design, and you're implicitly expected to warrant > the result - or at least, to provide after-installation support. In the > immortal words of Nancy Reagan (or was it Barbara Bush?), Just Say No. > > On your second topic: with whole systems, we will only provide an itemized > estimate to a customer with whom we have already developed a relationship > of trust - either because they are already one of our longtime clients, or > because through the design process we are clear that they have chosen to > work only with us based on our reputation, quality of work, a referral, > etc., and even then those customers often have no need of itemized prices > for that very reason. It only took one or two experiences years ago of > preparing a design for a lead and having the person then shop our design > elsewhere for us to stop offering itemized component lists with line-item > prices. > > My usual approach is to create my design and estimate in our Quickbooks > software. We have a variety of templates we have created over the years. > One that I use for this is set up to print out (or email as a .pdf > attachment) an itemized list of components, including line items for > shipping, installation materials, labor and travel, but without prices. > Only the total appears at the bottom. I make sure that any allowance-based > items state the amount of the allowance in the description, such as "$150 > allowance for permits; will bill actual cost" or "$1,500 estimated > allowance for installation materials: wire, conduit, fittings, etc.", or > even "16' estimated allowance for 2/0 battery cable", as as this provides > justification for actual billing at job's end. The customer who is > interested can see our choice of components, and could take this design > elsewhere for lower prices. But they know that we won't install the > components for them, and won't support them, and they generally they see > our proposal as a total solution - design, installation, warranty, support > and service. > > All of what I have written here comes from my specific perspective doing > battery-based systems, mostly off grid. Our "B-Team" within Positive Energy > works primarily the old-fashioned way, on a time-and-materials basis. That > won't work for standard grid-tied systems, which use completely different > sales approaches and fixed-price bids in a highly competitive environment. > > I hope that this helps you, Jason. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > *al...@positiveenergysolar.com* <al...@positiveenergysolar.com> > NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder and Chief Technology Officer > *Positive Energy, Inc.* > 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) > Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 > *505 424-1112* > *www.positiveenergysolar.com* <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>**** > > ***************** > * > > On 8/18/2012 10:18 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > We are getting more and more people calling that want to provide their own > equipment and have us install it. It's frustrating, because usually they > are looking at prices for materials that either I would not consider > selling, or would not meet the mounting requirements of the Florida > Building Code. Of course, they do not understand and consider all of the > other costs. > > In addition, lots of people are looking for a breakdown of prices (down > to the line item - nuts and bolts). I generally refuse to provide it > because it inevitably leads to the response "I can get that module/inverter > online cheaper." The "I need to make money" response leads to "yeah, but > you must be getting better prices than I see online" argument. And so on, > and so on... I'm sure you've heard it... > > I've resorted recently to just providing a percentage breakdown, > stating that the price is roughly 25% each: > > - PV Modules > - Inverters and Electrical > - Mounting System > - Design/Engineering, Permitting, Labor, Overhead, and Profit > > Any other tips out there to answer the request for line item details? > > Jason Szumlanski > Fafco Solar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >
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