Hi Pat;
HI Pat;
No disrespect in either direction. I always appreciate everyone's views.
Larry's Gigavac solenoid looks good too, but my read of 690.71 looks
like I still need an OCPD within 5 ft of the batteries, as well.
I'm already using substantial Midnite products for the actual "PV
Circuit" Rapid Disconnect, so I will probably do further "cobbling" with
their RT Breakers and enclosures to meet the battery side requirements.
It still is amazing that this is not being addressed by any of the
inverter manufacturers. But hey, I'm just some hippy Drumpf brain from
no where's ville, so what do I know?
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer since 1986
303 505-8760
On 3/15/2016 3:54 PM, Patrick A. Shortell wrote:
Hi Ray
Well you got me there
I meant no disrespect to you personally.
I think as a whole the code making panels do their best to keep up.
If I missed some of the particulars
Please excuse me.
And I guess it would be more useful to offer a workable solution
Maybe I've missed some of the details but doesn't mid nite offer a
shunt trip breaker as part of their ebox that works with the birdhouse
I've used one in the past
Is it not ul listed
That's all from me
Pat
Patrick A. Shortell
Licensed Master Electrician
Certified Solar Installer
71 Oregon Street
Long Beach N.Y. 11561
Www.thesolarstorehouse.com <http://www.thesolarstorehouse.com>
On Mar 15, 2016, at 5:16 PM, Ray Walters <r...@solarray.com
<mailto:r...@solarray.com>> wrote:
So Pat, you stated "/There are simple ways to work around these
issues/". Actually, the major off grid inverter manus do not have a
solution for this ( Magnum, Outback, Exeltech, Schneider, SMA)
Can you show us an example of a UL listed system that has multiple
inverters (over 8 kW cont.), with rapid disconnects within 5 ft? I'm
really looking for actual solutions here folks, and I haven't seen a
single system ever built, much less even a simple wiring diagram that
would comply with this new requirement. (/690.12(5) Equipment that
performs the rapid shutdown shall be listed and identified/)
Also, for every improvement comes a whole new set of problems. Your
"/What would I do in my own house?/" is an excellent point.
Personally, I would not want the neighbor's kids to be able to shut
off my refrigerator or grandma's breathing machine with the touch of
an outside accessible, unlockable button.
I've been cobbling together code compliant systems for 2 decades, so
yes, I'm sure I could scavenge relays from the EV world to do this.
But the days of inventing custom (non UL) solutions to meet new
requirements should be over. If this is to be a national
requirement, the industry should be mature enough to offer multiple
solutions for code compliance. I'm all for improving safety, but it
needs to be done as an industry: together, incrementally.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 3/15/2016 1:48 PM, Patrick Shortell wrote:
Dear List,
Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be
disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation.
We can always do better than what the code requires. I get
frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the
text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios.
There are simple ways to work around these issues.
I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his
approval First.
What would I do in my own house?
What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a
hoseline into my basement.
My two cents
Pat
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, <billbroo...@sbcglobal.net
<mailto:billbroo...@sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
Ray,
I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system
circuit is a
self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are
going to
develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It
means ANY
circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone
circuits in
the 2014 NEC.
The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire
service and
the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially
module-level
shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them
involved
since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was
developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In
the 2014
NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this
requirement.
In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries
and loads,
that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own
articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think
for a minute
that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting
it in this
way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of
the PV
industry so I think I know what the intent was.
It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would
try to keep
battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended
to match the
requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the
intent of the
2014 NEC.
The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they
still cannot
backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will
have their
own requirements in time--that is guaranteed.
Bill.
-----Original Message-----
From: RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On
Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown
Greetings Esteemed Wrenches:
I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we
are still
being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No
where in 690.12
are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section
that deals
with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a
single
article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have
contacted both
Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are
unaware that rapid
shutdown applies.
My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and
battery system
that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any
rapid shutdown
at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar
module into
the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem
lies with the
term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output
circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system
circuit'
defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term.
Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel
with their
remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft
from the
batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that
would comply
with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote
trip.
We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the
Birdhouse,
so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to
batteries
though.
Thanks,
--
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
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Patrick A. Shortell
/Licensed Master Electrician/
/Certified Solar Installer/
71 Oregon Street
Long Beach N.Y. 11561
cell: 516-477-0221
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