thanks for this thesis on the randomizing of rebol Alan!
another tidbit of information that wasn't obvious to realize!
-MAx
----- Original Message -----
From: "alan parman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 10:08 PM
Subject: [REBOL] Notes on seeding 'random/seed (long)
>
> Here are some things I found out will working on 'random/secure and
'random/seed that may be of help to others.
>
> I wanted to completely utilize the time provided by 'now/precise as the seed
for 'random/seed.
> (for some cryptography related scripts)
>
> (the following messages are from the escribe archives and console output is
from view 1.2.5.3.1
>
> >From an earlier question on using 'random Joel Neely wrote:
> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:09:45
>
> "The documentation should state what types of values are acceptable
> as seeds. I believe that you need to restrict yourself to date!,
> time!, or integer! values for legitimate seeds."
>
> And Frank Sievertsen wrote:
> [REBOL] Re: True Random
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:09:35
>
> Try this:
> random/seed checksum form now/precise
>
> CU,
> Frank
>
> With Petr Krenzelok adding:
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:32:38
>
> you can even use checksum/secure ....
>
> -pekr-
>
>
>
> But please observe the following...
>
> It appears that 'random/seed seeded with time ('now/precise) only seeds to the
second! ...
>
> randomize-series: func [series][
> random/seed now/precise
> random/secure series
> ]
>
> >> loop 10 [print [now/precise randomize-series "12345"]]
> 15-Jan-2004/12:20:06.968-5:00 14532
> 15-Jan-2004/12:20:06.968-5:00 14532
> 15-Jan-2004/12:20:06.968-5:00 14532
> 15-Jan-2004/12:20:06.984-5:00 14532
> 15-Jan-2004/12:20:06.984-5:00 14532
> 15-Jan-2004/12:20:07-5:00 13524
> 15-Jan-2004/12:20:07-5:00 13524
> 15-Jan-2004/12:20:07.015-5:00 13524
> 15-Jan-2004/12:20:07.015-5:00 13524
> 15-Jan-2004/12:20:07.015-5:00 13524
>
> ... as you see the randomized string only changes with the second.
>
>
> Changing the time to an integer won't work ...
>
> >> loop 10 [print [now/precise to-integer now/time/precise]]
> 15-Jan-2004/12:13:32.953-5:00 44012
> 15-Jan-2004/12:13:32.968-5:00 44012
> 15-Jan-2004/12:13:32.968-5:00 44012
> 15-Jan-2004/12:13:32.968-5:00 44012
> 15-Jan-2004/12:13:32.984-5:00 44012
> 15-Jan-2004/12:13:32.984-5:00 44012
> 15-Jan-2004/12:13:33-5:00 44013
> 15-Jan-2004/12:13:33-5:00 44013
> 15-Jan-2004/12:13:33-5:00 44013
> 15-Jan-2004/12:13:33.015-5:00 44013
>
> ... as you can see that the integer changes only with the second.
>
> Also, note that I only changed the time (not the date) to integer, because ...
>
> >> to-integer now/precise
> ** Script Error: Invalid argument: 15-Jan-2004/12:30:15.734-5:00
> ** Where: to-integer
> ** Near: to integer! :value
>
> ... thus not using the date portion in the potential seed.
>
> You cannot use checksum/secure on the time because ...
>
> >> random/seed checksum/secure form now/precise
> == {îen|^E?^A"d¦-Âê/Ì^K^G¬Ñý}
>
> ... and ...
>
> >> seed: checksum/secure form now/precise
> == #{70C9F0D1D65FD88B6093DF38FD972ABCA56724B3}
> >> random/seed seed
> == "<`$-p*Éß¼gس_Ö¥ð8ý"Ñ"
> >> random/seed seed
> == "g<_ð"ßÉ`¼pýÑÖ¥*$8-³Ø"
> >> random/seed seed
> == "¥`¼Ñ_-p$Øð<ýÖÉ8*"³ßg"
>
> ... returns a value! Thus the "seed" given above is scrambled , but not passed
to random/seed as a seed.
>
> If "checksum/secure form now/precise" was providing a legitimate seed then the
follwing sequences would be identical ...
>
> >> seed: checksum/secure form now/precise
> == #{70C9F0D1D65FD88B6093DF38FD972ABCA56724B3}
> >> random/seed seed
> == ""*g`Ñ<¥¼ð³Ø$É8Ö_-pßý"
> >> loop 5 [print random/secure "12345"]
> 53142
> 31254
> 32514
> 25143
> 32145
> >> random/seed seed
> == "*ýg`ÖѳßpÉ-"$¥Ø_8¼ð<"
> >> loop 5 [print random/secure "12345"]
> 32415
> 13524
> 15432
> 45231
> 43251
>
> .. but they are not the same.
>
> So, to use _all_ of the information provided by 'now/precise (all of
15-Jan-2004/12:34:16.437-5:00) as a seed to 'random/seed you must
>
> random/seed to-integer checksum/secure form now/precise
>
> Now we see all the behavior we expect ...
>
> >> seed: to-integer checksum/secure form now/precise
> == 1264002547
> >> random/seed seed
> >> loop 5 [print random/secure "12345"]
> 45213
> 41325
> 45321
> 35124
> 14523
> >> random/seed seed
> >> loop 5 [print random/secure "12345"]
> 45213
> 41325
> 45321
> 35124
> 14523
>
> Notice that there is nothing returned when providing the seed and that the two
sequences are identical.
>
>
> Other Observations:
>
> 'random/seed will take a date ...
>
> >> seed: now/date
> == 16-Jan-2004
> >> random/seed seed
> >>
>
> .. because nothing is returned.
>
> A 'binary is not a legitimate seed ...
>
> >> seed: to-binary 100
> == #{313030}
> >> random/seed seed
> == "010"
>
> ... because a value is returned.
>
> A 'time is a legitimate seed ...
>
> >> seed: now/time
> == 22:11:03
> >> random/seed seed
> >>
>
> ... but remember that it is good only to the second!
>
> So, you need to do two tests to determine if a seed is legitimate:
>
> 1) Nothing returned from 'random/seed your-seed
> 2) Identical random sequences produced when reseeding from the same seed.
>
> To conclude: apparently only dates, times, and integers are legitimate seeds,
> and one way to use all of a 'now (including both date and sub-second
precision) is to
>
> random/seed to-integer checksum/secure form now/precise
>
>
> Here's a handy function to reseed to sub-second precision ...
>
> randomize: func [
> {Reseed the random number generator using 'now/precise, or enter a date!
time! integer! argument.}
> seed [any-type!]
> ][
> random/seed either value? 'seed [seed][to-integer checksum/secure form
now/precise]
> ]
>
>
> As a bonus (as if this wasn't long enough already!) I have included my
gleanings from the archives about 'random in the following binary!. Just
decompress.
>
>
> probe decompress useful-stuff-on-random: 64#{
> eJztW2l720aS/rz4FW14Ziw5vADecGxHhx0p8ZHITjyJHiUBiSaJCASQBiCKzmZ+
> +75V3QBByfIRj3cnz7OyqQPdXX3U9VZ14fTk0f7zJ2fiRHrixI+DZCniYjmRKhOz
> RImnSZxLceCrKLGsxypZeuKrREbimZTRWuxchHIlknwhlVjKLPPnMhOTtcgXYSb8
> Il8kaldYh34O4i/8vCGcjtgr5sLtdFzRGXndsdcbCMuyjmOM8XORpaEK0Q8EpfDx
> yVeJmBXxNA+TOBN5IqbJMi2wpG+OxUXoW7y+Jq8PK8CEQdYQSSxFkYXxXJzsPTt8
> /lRgX6AvzUq5ydJN7RePDr47ecR7lb8V4YUfyTgXaaHSJJNZy7IEvpbTNPR4HeKU
> H9BXmmfiNMT0c6lunVWP21Ey9SNxKdYijLMwkNxythmnn3qiUz2JkiTV5KpH9HWJ
> Pq0OfTnirlCaOQ4/6Gx1XL9vx3Amdi7R5XJXfCZ21vhtvSs+vy+cVoe2otelf6KD
> s9nU5rdUYcviSt82r/6u6F3plobiyhMlf03CWJzadjm2Sb3ulssVdpoubT3dWXn4
> 2X/K6bczOS0gle/LhLf1/8vxYh/aI7JFsmJVklkeLqHYgYDKFLLBD+1cFdLWT4Q/
> nSYqIC2E2rKVaVilIl74KvTjqcTEIvVVnjVTqZrLMIqg51C6l1D7b/cOhSqg9clM
> SH9q5vZFIKdYayDCZaqSC7kkfZ3BMgmjy62W0doHD1hxzXb4Ubfl9MbDQfW70x+7
> g363PxoPx/xw5AyGrW5v0HM6bmeI/b+NVL8z6N1MatzpbUgNxuNtYtn1hTlD92Zq
> jlsjNuy+i1h3PBrdTKzpDB23VT7qdjW5o2QlL6RqiKcHsK5kwSdJkYtcwjiHMO9i
> 5mc57CcsdYw+L745bogsEeukAA/XFpnQFRlxejCXOfPBOnp5dMuymr/GTfyh4nhL
> keOaCovMX6aRvKbVRqOz3IdYp0peCKiUIgstxWyZ0wcmG1JxIRb0LaJvuWVU3hD1
> MNVd/tA4DxLZNLNU07bRjA+P0jQ94UDz8Ms8XzwUrCs2/hGFsle5m8v6RsyK1VnN
> oiykH5CWSZW3gyIVytMEp0m6FlDASyZt9tKsJlXWRuP5BDw94lQ/YtMV16bx01TG
> QTuJ4Zz1iVH3diBlCneq/HU7jMM8xOow6rRzdlajT8fqld4j3tCv+FIzH/LC4/7V
> ozcMrtbc9mhA26M+bUef6hsaakvR9unUfmG4Z1eLsBtCyMtUAhDEc08zQ48h5nvM
> /dK4QyDZbiiYDX0Ymy3kdQ9QdrwgrqHztiOgxWAtmj2C6aNj2yFrWc1eo5tje+i1
> 9Vgvbulfahm92qxXvcQ80dXmq9b+1PbMSvKzN5zYoQQq0mCJbKKtCdp5YvPMZ9YZ
> oa1cTBdyeq4h3hSd4aby8ELid6VkxATINJOpzkI++Zz6Li2goiycRLD3EzINhKmK
> HIAMI4soEBMCXrDNTHcRNrPfCqC4AADMj9ZZmFnwemQeVmG2gHWA8YJJECMx0sar
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>
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