At 04:51 PM 1/3/99, Trudy and Rod Bray wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> ENGLAND IN CONTEXT
>>
>> The English experiment in life is, admittedly, part of a wider
>> and longer process which reaches back to the 'spread' to Indo-
>> European ways into the lives of others, and before that a
>> European 'neolithic' stage which made the 'spread' of Indo-
>> European possible.
>>
>> Looking at things from this perspective, the moment at which
>> one group of people renounce a belief in transubstantiation is
>> a crucial disappearing or vanishing point of a long tradition
>> which reaches back into the common ground between the West and
>> First Peoples.
>>
>> The contrast provided by Quiros and Governor Phillip
>> highlights the two sides of this vanishing point. Both images,
>> no doubt, surrounded by chaos as you rightly demonstrate. But
>> striking figures for all that, as fractal images of a more
>> complex system.
>
>Bruce,
>
>Would you explain what you mean by 'renouncing a belief in
>transubstantiation' and how that
>constitutes a 'vanishing point of a long tradition which reaches back into
>the common ground
>between the West and First Peoples'?
>
>Trudy
I'll have a quick go at this (Bruce may or may not agree)
Transubstantiation is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church which
maintains that the wine and wafer are changed into the real body and blood
of Christ during the Sacrement of the Eucharist.
It is contrasted with various other Christian interpretations , such as
impanation and subpanation (respectively the beliefs that the body and
blood are in or under the bread and wine) and from theories which maintain
that the body and blood are only spiritually present.
These matters were the subject of extensive theological debate during the
middle ages (Occam - remember Occam's Razor - "it is vain to do with more
that which can be done with fewer" - was excommunicated in 1328 for
committing heresy by questioning transubstantiation) , and finally
confirmed as Catholic dogma by the Council of Trent in 1551. The
development of transubstantiation as a fundamental christian belief appears
to have grown during the latter part of the first millenium with the
emergence of a clear distinction between clergy and laity. Such
transformations could only be performed by the clergy. Accordingly the
acceptance of transubstantion is seen by some (like Bertrand Russell for
example) as one of the markers of the development of the Christian church
from a "peoples religious movement" to a heirarchically structured one.
(See Russell's History of Western Philosophy chapter 11).
Protestant movements in the middle of the 2nd millenium generally rejected
transubstantiation as well as the political power of the pope and clergy,
and saw themselves as effectively substituting a "peoples religion" for a
politically dominated one.
Bruce (and I hope I'm not putting words into his mouth here) sees an
analogy (or perhaps rather more than an analogy) between the acceptance of
transubstantiation and indigenous spiritual beliefs and it is certainly
possible to see some similarities.
As to the abandonment of transubstantiation being the 'vanishing point of a
long tradition which reaches back into the common ground between the West
and First Peoples' I have some grave doubts.
Sure, you can see bits and pieces of similarity, but this does not
establish commonality. One could say, just as easily for example, that the
democratic processes of the early Christian Church (resurrected in part by
the Protestant movements when they attacked the dogma oftransubstantiation)
fit well with indigenous peoples beliefs.
Cheers
Rod
Rod Hagen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hurstbridge, Victoria, Australia
WWW http://www.netspace.net.au/~rodhagen
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