I oppose the calls for Clarke to stand down until his trial. It's clear that community standards have changed and it seems to me that that is something we should be extremely concerned about.With the rule of law increasingly under attack the principle of innocence until proven guilty needs to be defended not further undermined. We need to remember why we have courts in the first place, and why it is essential that the judges be independent and answerable to no-body. If people already consider Clarke to be guilty then an acquittal won't make any difference. The judge will just be vilified as being "out of touch with community values" or some other such nonsense. It's another aspect of the values which have given us mandatory sentencing - the idea that courts are there to do what governments and radio talkback hosts want them to do. It's true that rape is a serious crime, which is precisely why we must wait for the trial and be absolutely certain - beyond reasonable doubt - of a person's guilt before we start demanding they be punished. Clarke says that the charges against him are political. We don't know whether that is true or not. Perhaps we should wait and see. However, the calls for him to stand down are, and justice demands that we oppose them. Isabella >From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: "RecOzNet2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Re: The Canberra Times: Burke calls on ATSIC chair >to stand down while ... >Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 09:26:26 -0000 > >Hi Laurie, > >As I've followed the argument, Clarke isn't refusing to play according to >the bad guys' dictates, he's using exactly the same justification - this is >'political' and I therefore won't stand aside. Just like Howard's >minister's wouldn't. He's not making a principled stand against what the >likes of Howard would do, he's using the same arguments they do and >following the same course of action. > >Still, I'll admit, the notions of 'due process' I'm suggesting should be >maintained are maybe no longer relevant. Maybe community standards have >shifted - certainly Howard's and Clarke's behaviour suggests it. I just >reckon it's unfortunate. > >And just in addition, I'd like to support Trudy's responses to Karen. >Karen >is confusing the discussion we were having with the issue of rape. She is >also, as Trudy illustrates, presuming guilt not innocence, something, we >should be aware, is a crime in itself. I reckon Clarke should stand down >but that doesn't mean - even remotely - that I think he is guilty. AS >usual, Karen should read what was said and read her own confused comments >and try and sort out her thoughts before sharing them with everyone. > >Tim > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Laurie Forde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Thursday, August 03, 2000 6:40 AM >Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Re: The Canberra Times: Burke calls on ATSIC chair >to stand down while ... > > > >Hi Tim, > > > > It does not mean you are joining the bad guys' when you refuse to play > >according to their dictates. > > > >It just means you do not have a suicide complex. > > > > > >Laurie > > > >Laurie and Desley Forde > >Email. [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Without a treaty, which spells out the obligations and rights of both > >parties, there can be no Reconciliation in Australia----Geoff Clark. > > > > >------------------------------------------------------ >RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at >http://www.mail-archive.com/ >To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the >body >of the message, include the words: unsubscribe announce or click here >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce >This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without >permission from the >copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and >research under the "fair >use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed >further without >permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." > >RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ >http://www.mail-archive.com/recoznet2%40paradigm4.com.au/ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------ RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words: unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." 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