I dunno. I still think it was reasonable to consider Lester and Buccholz as a one and two in the rotation, with Becket and Lackey as very solid threes and fours. And Daisuke is an above average five.
On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Ray Salemi <[email protected]> wrote: > The whole "suck" problem is back to Theo. That was a fragile staff. It's > not as if they did well last year. In fact the pitching cost us the post > season as well. > > On Oct 7, 2011, at 12:18 PM, Steve Ouellette <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > It doesn't make for good copy, but yes, they failed repeatedly, they > > had injuries and they had bad luck. > > > > Lackey just plain sucks, and did the whole year. Wakefield is old, and > > sucks, and over the past few years has sucked more the deeper into the > > season he went. Kyle Weiland has fifth-starter potential, but he's not > > ready, and he sucked. Andrew Miller was a good gamble, but he sucked > > like he has for most of his major league career. Erik Bedard is a > > capable starter with good stuff, but he missed a large chunk of the > > season with injury, came back without rehab, hurt himself again, then > > came back again down the stretch -- out of desperation, and again with > > no rehab -- and sucked. > > > > All of those guys certainly could have pitched better than they did in > > September, but they didn't. It was a confluence of suckiness. > > > > The loss of Buchholz was huge, taking away an above-average pitcher > > and replacing him with sub-average ones. What hurt the most down the > > stretch is that Lester and Beckett collapsed. That's the part that we > > couldn't foresee. I don't have the energy to look up the numbers, but > > I don't think that's been the history of Beckett and Lester. But I > > have a hard time blaming Curt Young's not watching their beer > > consumption as the problem. > > > > Both of those guys missed starts in September with injuries -- isn't > > it entirely possible that neither one was at 100 percent, but they > > rushed back due to the dire situation? > > > > I was actually worried about Lester most of the summer. He went on the > > DL with the strained Lat in July, and when he got back, Tito > > immediately insisted on riding him hard -- with big pitch counts -- > > even in games where the Sox had big leads, even when the Sox had a big > > lead in the standings. He didn't have good command for most of the > > second half of the season. Yes, if Lester was in NFL-linebacker > > physical condition, maybe he wouldn't have worn down, but he's never > > been in that kind of condition. > > > > I think just plain bad pitching was the reason for the epic collapse. > > The pressure once the collapse started certainly didn't help, but > > clubhouse chemistry and beer are just scapegoats. There wasn't a > > single whiff of complaint in either regard on Aug. 31. It wasn't until > > after the fact that everyone started searching for a narrative to > > explain things. > > > > Anyway, glad to see both the Rays and Yanks done. > > > > Steve O > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Tom Salemi <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Steve, what is your reason for the epic collapse? They tried their best > and > >> just failed...repeatedly? Just bad luck? > >> Yes, the team lost because they didn't play well. But there might be > things > >> that led to that. > >> I'm not really buying the beer thing either, but if pitchers strayed > from > >> programs that made them successful in the past than that's a very real > >> thing, and a problem. > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Steve Ouellette < > [email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> There are a lot of successful fat pitchers. Curt Schilling was hefty. > >>> David Wells was enormously successful in the postseason. They're > >>> baseball players, not athletes, and the whole beer thing is just a > >>> convenient excuse for the epic collapse. > >>> > >>> Steve O > >>> > >>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Ray <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>> I've come to the conclusion that I agree with Tom. The season was lost > >>>> to fat pitchers who couldn't pitch. > >>>> > >>>> For this I blame the pitching coach who let them get fat. > >>>> > >>>> I blame Francona for protecting our fatsos in the media and protecting > >>>> the enabling pitching coach. > >>>> > >>>> Finally I blame Theo for bringing us Dice-K and Lackey, and for > letting > >>>> the pitching staff get fat. I think that the Sox developed a culture > of fame > >>>> with no pressure or expectations. > >>>> > >>>> Pressure won't make you pitch better in a game, but it will keep the > >>>> beer from your lips and get you to push back from the buffet table. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>> Groups "Red Sox Citizens" group. > >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/redsoxcitizens/-/NkMuGU0mLpMJ. > >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>> [email protected]. > >>>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>> "Red Sox Citizens" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> [email protected]. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Red Sox Citizens" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> [email protected]. > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Red Sox Citizens" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Red Sox Citizens" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Red Sox Citizens" group. 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