Some of the other cases come out the other way, if I remember them correctly.
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 5:32 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Landmark First Amendment Religion Litigation? Well, I firmly endorse a secular norm of disliking Communism. Nonetheless, unless I'm mistaken the Milivojevich Court held *in favor* of the Yugoslav (and I take it Communist-influenced) hierarchy. The hierarchy tried to remove the American bishop; the Illinois Supreme Court invalidated the removal "as 'arbitrary' because the proceedings resulting in those actions were not conducted according to the Illinois Supreme Court's interpretation of the Church's constitution and penal code, and that the Diocesan reorganization was invalid because it was beyond the scope of the Mother Church's authority to effectuate such changes without Diocesan approval." The Supreme Court reversed the Illinois decision, and the Communist-influenced hierarchy won. That seems to suggest that the Court was following a norm of deference to the hierarchical authorities, whether the heads were under the influence of Communists or not. Am I missing something here? Eugene > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Newsom Michael > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 2:25 PM > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics > Subject: RE: Landmark First Amendment Religion Litigation? > > That is all well and good, but I have the sense that the > Court nonetheless applied secular norms in some post-Wolf > cases, indeed perhaps going so far as to constitutionalize a > Congregationalist polity even in hierarchical churches (be > they Episcopalian or Presbyterian in their polity). If this > isn't the application of secular norms, then what is it? > > As to the post-Wolf cases, it is difficult to argue that they > can be easily reconciled, there being a real difference on > the precise question of secular norms. I think that the law > is anything but clear, post-Wolf. > > One more point, the property dispute cases involving Eastern > Orthodox Churches certainly reflect secular norms -- a > dislike of communism, for openers. > > > > > ----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Volokh, Eugene > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 4:40 PM > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics > Subject: RE: Landmark First Amendment Religion Litigation? > > "[W]hether or not there is room for "marginal civil court > review " under the narrow rubrics of "fraud" or "collusion" > when church tribunals act in bad faith for secular purposes, > no "arbitrariness" exception in the sense of an inquiry > whether the decisions of the highest ecclesiastical tribunal > of a hierarchical church complied with church laws and > regulations is consistent with the constitutional mandate > that civil courts are bound to accept the decisions of the > highest judicatories of a religious organization of > hierarchical polity on matters of discipline, faith, internal > organization, or ecclesiastical rule, custom, or law. For > civil courts to analyze whether the ecclesiastical actions of > a church judicatory are in that sense "arbitrary " must > inherently entail inquiry into the procedures that canon or > ecclesiastical law supposedly requires the church judicatory > to follow, or else in to the substantive criteria by which > they are supposedly to decide the ecclesiastical question. > But this is exactly the inquiry that the First Amendment > prohibits; recognition of such an exception would undermine > the general rule that religious controversies are not the > proper subject of civil court inquiry, and that a civil court > must accept the ecclesiastical decisions of church tribunals > as it finds them. Watson itself requires our conclusion in > its rejection of the analogous argument that ecclesiastical > decisions of the highest church judicatories need only be > accepted if the subject matter of the dispute is within their > "jurisdiction."" Serbian Eastern Orthodox Diocese v. > Milivojevich, 426 U.S. 696, 713 (1976). > > > ________________________________ > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 1:24 PM > To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > Subject: Re: Landmark First Amendment Religion Litigation? > > > In a message dated 1/26/2007 4:20:12 PM Eastern > Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > I will be the first to admit that I may have > misread Jones v. Wolf, but "neutral principles of law" is a > rather capacious concept, and don't forget Gonzalez v. Roman > Catholic Archbishop of Manila and the insistence there of the > right of the Court to provide a remedy where there was > "fraud, collusion, or arbitrariness" in the proceedings > before the religious tribunal. > > > > Jones v. Wolf sets forth one means by which a state may > constitutionally chose to resolve property disputes..it does > not stand ofr a general proposition applicable to the > ministerial exception or other aspects of ecclesial > life.....case law has specifically held that the > "arbitrariness" referred to in Gonzalez does not give a > court the jurisdiction to interpret an ecclesiaastical > organization's ecclesiastical process > > Donald C. Clark, Jr. > 2333 Waukegan Road > Suite 160 > Bannockburn, Illinois 60015 > 847-236-0900 > 847-236-0909 (fax) > > > > This message is a PRIVATE communication. This message > and all attachments > are a private communication sent by a law firm and may > be confidential or > protected by privilege. If you are not the intended > recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the > information contained in or attached to this message is strictly > prohibited. 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Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
