Actually, what we label "natural law" is a figment in the West of Greek imagination, since the arguments can be found in Plato and Aristotle, even if they were most fully developed by Thomas Aquinas. And, alas, Jewish and, I presume Islamic, law is thoroughly homophobic. None of this affects my support for Obergefell, but we should recognize this as a truly important moment in works culture, signaled far more significantly by the Irish referendum than by the vote of five American justices.
Sandy Sent from my iPhone On Jul 3, 2015, at 4:03 PM, Malla Pollack <mallapolla...@gmail.com<mailto:mallapolla...@gmail.com>> wrote: Natural law is a figment of Christian imagination. Do you really think that Muslims think western "natural law" is "natural"? Malla On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Richard Dougherty <dou...@udallas.edu<mailto:dou...@udallas.edu>> wrote: Largely agree with this point, except for one major caveat -- natural law arguments are not religious arguments. That's what is natural about them. The collapse of the distinction between natural and religious is precisely what allows for the dismissal of natural law arguments as not applicable to the public realm of a secular society (whatever that phrase may mean or entail, a great source of contestation). Richard Dougherty On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Marc R Poirier <marc.poir...@shu.edu<mailto:marc.poir...@shu.edu>> wrote: Judy and all: You write: "Sexual relations that can lead to procreation should occur only between a man and a woman...uh, this pertains to same-sex couples how?" I suspect the writer meant to write: "Sexual relations, which can lead to procreation, should occur only between a man and a woman." That would make it a natural law argument, one that does not refer to God. It's part of a millennia-long (probably inevitably recurring) notion that sex is basically polluting and is redeemed by various kinds of restrictions. One functional and redemptive justification for sexual activity is potential procreation. Not pleasure, not fostering a bond of companionship, not the release of important desires. As you well know, in the Judea-Christian tradition, non-procreative sex is problematic, and in one version of Christianity pleasure in sex is itself sinful. (Not so in traditional Judaism!) But of course to say all this openly brings religion and perhaps God back into the state's justification. What happens instead is to make certain kinds of conclusions about sex statements of obvious fact and then claim rational basis. Warmly, Marc R. Poirier Professor of Law and Martha Traylor Research Scholar Seton Hall University School of Law One Newark Center Newark, NJ 07102-5210 973-642-8478<tel:973-642-8478> (work) 973-642-8546<tel:973-642-8546> (fax) 201-259-0896<tel:201-259-0896> (mobile) Selected articles and drafts available at http://ssrn.com/author=1268697 Somebody has to plant the seed so that sanity can happen on this earth. -- Chogyam Trungpa, Rinpoche _______________________________________________ To post, send message to conlawp...@lists.ucla.edu<mailto:conlawp...@lists.ucla.edu> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conlawprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Richard J. Dougherty, Ph.D. Chairman, Politics Department University of Dallas 1845 E. Northgate Drive Irving, TX 75062 972-721-5043<tel:972-721-5043> _______________________________________________ To post, send message to conlawp...@lists.ucla.edu<mailto:conlawp...@lists.ucla.edu> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conlawprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. _______________________________________________ To post, send message to conlawp...@lists.ucla.edu<mailto:conlawp...@lists.ucla.edu> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conlawprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
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