Mark Brouwer wrote: > Hi Calum, > > Some remarks inline, don't feel personally offended by any of them as > they are not targetted or apply to you specifically. But your posting > referred to some sentiments I felt the need for to react on. > > Calum Shaw-Mackay wrote: >> +1 >> All the way through. As evidence of this, please check the front page >> >> It hasn't been changed or updated since the project has been accepted. > > Nobody has commit privileges at this point in time. I agree it seems > to take a while, but I don't think any of the 'microscopic issues' has > been a roadblock here. > > Also you don't have to be a committer to actually start helping out, so > nobody should hesitate to start helping out in this area. > >> At the moment any new blood that might be coming to the site, don't >> get that warm welcoming feeling to the project. I wholeheartedly agree >> with Dan here, it's not just the focusing on the detail, it's the >> bickering over the detail.... I believe we have much bigger things to > > I hope we can prevent from accusing those who participated so far too > much. I think the relative silence by most is far worse than the > perceived irrelevant issues discussed by those who did participate. > >> think about than indentation > > Some remarks on the indentation thread were funny so that has some value > too (we also discovered there were more than 7 subscribers), and in the > end it is a well known code issue that always results in a lot of > troubles. So I thank Gregg for at least bringing it up before we start > hacking the source. It gives Sun the ability to align this with the > ServiceUI code (which has spaces) or the other way around. Or we do > nothing about it but than at least we close the records on that issue as > it has been discussed and comply or leave. > >> , like what are we going to do, at a high >> level, to the user experience of the project and it's deliverables. I > > As I understand it during incubation users are not that important, I > think it has been said already, but incubation is about showing we can > work the Apache way and that we can create a healthy environment that > attracts new developers. >
Okay, so do we think that developers will be attracted by fixes to PreferredClassLoader or coding styles or debate about rules for checkins or a collection of JIRA issues they can look at or....... Will they be attracted because Jini is deemed cool, it's accessible, there are compelling reasons to use it, there's a strong direction which everyone can see benefit from, there are some serious challenges outlined that people can contribute to etc? Or maybe something else entirely? > Don't get me wrong, users *are* important but I don't think how the > world looks at us is our biggest problem at this point. I want to > see we have and attract developers that are actually going to spend > time on solving whatever comes on the roadmap. E.g. if we decide to > split the JTSK there are people who going to do that in a reasonable > time and taking care of all the rippling effects. > > I have no problem if the Apache River project has massive amount of > developers that want to work in a way that is in line with what the real > world wants, if we can find out what that is, although I doubt whether > we can succeed in that. I think that most of the people spending > substantial amounts of time on this project now or in the future are > doing it for their own little virtual world, whether that is because > they are forced to do that by their boss or because they believe in > their little world is not that relevant to me. > > So 'users' are important, but I find committers more important. If a > user doesn't agree with that, he can upgrade himself to contributer, > and from there to a committer. > > I hate to see those donating their time to be accused of not thinking > about the world or users for that matter, or being busy with irrelevant > things. So far there was plenty of opportunity to react on how to > proceed from here, so I hope that ideas will emerge instead of affirming > the things that are not going that smooth. > > Hoping not to have alienated anyone,
