So, the message I’m getting is that I’m the only one here. :) That’s cool. Just throwing it out there as a suggestion.
Massimo is right that there should probably be a lot more sharing of what we’re working on. Honestly, though, I think one of the reasons we don’t hear much about Tcl (and, by extension, Rivet) is because all of the people using it are probably in the “I’m too old to brag about shit, I’m just here to get my work done” crowd. That’s my inclination anyway. I’ve done a lot of work in Rivet. I’ve been working with Tcl in one form or another for the last 20 years (thanks, Karl!). I just don’t have much time for showing everyone, explaining it, and then supporting it for others who want to use it. That’s probably a selfish attitude, but I’ve been screwed by the open source crowd before. The whole “stone soup” idea is great, and I still believe in it, but more often than not, I see one or two people doing the work and everyone else complaining. Sorry, that’s a bit of rant I didn’t mean to get off on. Yes, we should show off some of the stuff we’ve been working on. I know Flightaware has a repo on GitHub where the post some of their cool stuff. I’ve got a whole MVC framework I built in Rivet that I’m not ready to show wide, and it probably sucks, but I really like it. :) Maybe we need a place on the website that points to projects connected to Rivet. Just a title and a link (probably to a GitHub repo) is good, but maybe a short description of the project as well. Or, maybe we’re all gettin’ too old for this shit. D > On Dec 18, 2014, at 1:38 PM, Jeff Lawson <[email protected]> wrote: > > I do think that the Apache relationship improves the perception of the > project to outsiders in a positive way, and separating would potentially > cause new users to have greater skepticism about Rivet. Also, just having to > explain the fact that it is no longer an Apache project could be perceived > slightly negatively. > > Some Apache projects choose to use git instead of subversion, which might > make it easier for other users to submit code changes via pull requests: > https://git-wip-us.apache.org/ <https://git-wip-us.apache.org/> > > > On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Damon Courtney <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Tcl is not a popular language. It’s not GOING to be a popular language. > Nothing we do in Rivet will change that. Although, Rails made Ruby popular, > so who knows. I don’t care. I use what I like and will continue to do so. > > The point was simply that the open source world is much more vibrant in > places NOT ruled by bureaucracy. No, we’re not going to get a herd of > programmers take a look at Rivet by going somewhere else, but having everyone > jump through stupid hoops to even try can’t help. I’ll admit that this is > purely self-serving on my part. I don’t want to have to jump through the > stupid hoops either. Not when I can just grab any project off Github that I > want and start working in minutes. > > I suppose the Apache project lends some credibility (for some), but I don’t > see it much these days. Any project that wants to attract attention now lives > on Github. Do we really want to keep voting and submitting quarterly updates > about how nothing is really happening? Or getting chastised for not sending > said reports? > > Also, holy shit, are we still f*cking using Subversion?! This makes the whole > Apache Project look like asshats. Ridiculous. > > D > > > > On Dec 18, 2014, at 3:40 AM, David Welton <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > >> ASF is somewhat bureaucratic and rigid, no doubt. It's grown a lot and > >> became tailored to let many large projects coexist. I wasn't a committer or > >> member in the early times, but I always thought ASF was a collection of > >> projects which had at the center the Apache HTTP Web Server. Apache Tcl > >> fits > >> exactly this model, and it would all the more so if we consider also the > >> projects we dropped because unmaintained (mod_tcl, etc). But the web server > >> (despite being still central for the Internet at large) is not the core of > >> ASF anymore. There are ~150 projects in ASF, some of them really, really > >> big > >> and with large and thriving communities. I was impressed by the number of > >> top level projects Apache Hadoop gave birth. We don't fit this picture > >> anymore, unquestionable. Recently on the board list someone pointed out > >> that > >> Apache never accepted umbrella projects in order to have a more timely and > >> accountable management. Well...Apache Tcl is an umbrella project, we > >> declared it at the beginning of our home page, in very first statement. > >> Definitely we are misplaced if you see it this way. > > > > I think at one point, being associated with the Apache web server had > > some cachet. These days, most Apache projects are Java things that > > don't have any cross over with the web server, Tcl or Rivet. > > > > The rigidity and process and all that are a good thing for companies > > who want to interact with Apache, as there's a predictable, mostly > > friendly model for how things work, that produces code without legal > > issues. I don't think those are advantages for Rivet. > > > >> On the other hand we are tightly connected to the Apache web server and I > >> see some danger ahead. It happened to me recently to show a young engineer > >> a > >> project I did using Rivet and Tcl. He didn't know of Tcl and became > >> suspicious of it. I could only mitigate his perplexity when I showed Rivet > >> is developed under the hat of ASF. Branding is a key problem, also in the > >> Open Source world. > > > > Interesting - what kind of background does he have in terms of programming? > > > > OTOH, I'm not exactly sure there are vast herds of programmers just > > milling around waiting to start contributing to Rivet if only it > > weren't under the yoke of the ASF, either.... > > > > -- > > David N. Welton > > > > http://www.dedasys.com/ <http://www.dedasys.com/> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> >
