Short version: The draft RRG Report indicates that the RADIR Problem
Statement is an implicitly adequate description of
the routing scaling problem and that there is RRG
consensus support for irtf-rrg-design-goals-01.
Yet we are still debating improvements to the RADIR
Problem Statement and there has been no consensus
test on the July 2007 irtf-rrg-design-goals-01.
Hi Lixia and Tony,
The Introduction of draft-irtf-rrg-recommendation-05 includes:
the design goals that we have agreed to can be found in
[I-D.irtf-rrg-design-goals].
This statement that "we have agreed" is incorrect. There has been no
consensus test on this ID. As I wrote in December (msg05495):
Tony announced irtf-rrg-design-goals-01 on 2007-07-11:
http://psg.com/lists/rrg/2007/msg00179.html
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg00183.html
There were only a handful of messages about the design goals
before this, and I recall not many since then. I expected there
would be further revisions, and wrote some detailed material
about improving the Design Goals on 2009-07-14:
http://psg.com/lists/rrg/2007/msg00199.html
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg00203.html
but there has been no discussion of my suggestions or further
revision of the Design Goals.
Tony wrote recently (msg05497, 2009-02-14):
When the discussion of the design goals slowed, we judged that to
indicate rough consensus.
Lixia disagreed (msg05510):
(no hat) consensus should be explicitly solicited, rather than
implicitly assumed.
Tony accepted this (2009-12-15):
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05511.html
Fair. In any case, we intentionally left the document open as
it was subject to further revisions.
Further, it's not clear that the status of the document is
really relevant to the discussion at hand. Folks are welcome
to use it if they want.
The messages preceding the writing of draft-irtf-rrg-design-goals-01
appear to be between 2007-04-24 and 2007-05-29.
Since the draft-irtf-rrg-design-goals-01 resulted from minimal
discussions so early in the RRG's work, and has rarely been discussed
since then, and since Tony suggested it wasn't really relevant to the
"current discussion" (writing the RRG Report) perhaps it should not
be mentioned in the RRG Report. However, as noted below, the
question of what our goals are is absolutely vital to anyone trying
to understand our Report.
If it is mentioned, I suggest something like:
draft-irtf-rrg-design-goals-01 was announced on 2007-07-11 on the
basis of some early discussions. While some changes to it were
suggested on 2007-07-14, these were neither acknowledged or
debated. The draft has not been revised or widely discussed.
There has been been no test of consensus support for it.
The statement about draft-narten-radir-problem-statement-05 is
potentially misleading:
The problem being addressed has been documented in
[I-D.narten-radir-problem-statement]
The RRG has rarely discussed this ID and there has been no consensus
test for support for it. As I wrote recently (msg06101) this ID has
only had minor updates since version 00 of 2007-07-26.
This ID is an attempt to document the problem, but that does not mean
that the problem is documented (implicitly "documented fully, or
adequately") in any version of this ID to date. I suggest:
[I-D.narten-radir-problem-statement] is an attempt at
documenting the scalable routing problem. While it has been
updated somewhat since its inception in July 2007 and occasionally
discussed in the RRG, in March 2010, it was still being discussed
and there was no consensus support for it.
Since we are making a recommendation, I think the statement of our
understanding of the problems, and the goals for solving it are
absolutely central to how we evaluate proposals and how we decide
which one(s) to recommend for IETF development. Likewise, such
statements are vital for anyone trying to understand our final Report.
I do not understand why, in the two and a half years and nearly 6000
messages which have elapsed since irtf-rrg-design-goals-01 was
written, you have not shown more interest in discussing and improving
this ID.
- Robin
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