I like that.  And I think Sec Consid. is the perfect place to put it.

Thanks for putting those words together.  I appreciate the effort.

Deb

On Mon, Oct 13, 2025 at 6:01 AM Alan DeKok <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Oct 12, 2025, at 8:48 PM, Deb Cooley <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Much, much better.  I'm deleting the things I think we agree are
> resolved.  The rest I've prefaced with [DC]
> >
> > What is left is:
> >
> > key management - generation (statement in Sec Consid) and PRNGs (and how
> they are used). See my notes in Jeff's last message.
> >
> > I also think we are still missing the statement in Sec Consid. that
> basically says, ISAAC is ok for this particular use case, and no other.
> I'd add that to the last paragraph of 15.1.  I'd like it to be unsubtle and
> a little in your face.
> >
> > The last thing I said I would help with was a statement about future
> methods.  Since this is an experiment, is it possible to have a 'future
> work' section (I've never seen one).  Other options might be the
> Introduction, or Sec Considerations (I guess).  Something like:  More
> secure methods may be an option as CPUs get faster and memory more
> plentiful.  Options could be using AES w/ hardware acceleration in OFB mode
> (FIPS 197, SP 800-38A, Output Feedback Mode), CHACHA in S/W (a stream
> cipher, RFC 7539), or other well understood techniques.
>
>   Perhaps adding the following text near the top of 15.1, after the
> initial paragraph.  I've tried to be clear, while at the same time raising
> major red flags about the use of this protocol.
>
>
>    The security of this proposal depends on the security of the
>    ISAAC algorithm, which has had minimal analysis.  While it is
>    believed that the algorithm is secure enough for this use case, no
>    proof is offered.  ISAAC was chosen here for the reasons discussed in
>    Section 3.1, as no other option was found to be suitable.
>
>    The choice of ISAAC was driven in part by the limited functionality
>    of systems which implement this specification.  Many of these systems
>    do not have hardware assistance for cryptographic opertations,
>    meaning that any CSPRNG based on a block cipher would be unsuitably
>    slow.  Where hardware assistance for block ciphers is available,
>    ISAAC offers no advantanges, and many disadvantages.
>
>    More secure methods are better choices as CPUs get faster and memory
>    more plentiful.  Alternative solutions could be AES with hardware
>    acceleration in OFB mode (FIPS 197, SP 800-38A, Output Feedback
>    Mode), or CHACHA in software (RFC7539 [RFC7539]), or other well
>    understood techniques.
>
>    For these reasons and many others, the ISAAC CSPRNG is at best
>    tolerable for use in this specification, and is completely unsuitable
>    for use in any other IETF protocol.
>
>

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